Winchester Fail-Safe bullets?

R

rlong5

New member
Last year was my third season elk hunting, and the first year that I was successful. But something about that day last fall has been bugging me. I'd like to figure it out before I go out again in October. Bear with me here....

I have a 300 WSM for elk. For ammo, I've been carrying Winchester Supreme 180 grain Fail Safe. Last fall, I got very lucky on opening morning when 7 cows and a bull appeared in the trees 55 yards away from where I was sitting (I paced it off later). After they looked at me for a few seconds, they turned broadside and ran down the hill. As soon as the cows got out of the way, I had an easy (but split-second!) shot between trees at the broadside bull who was just beginning to run. The bullet entered his right side, just behind the shoulder and near the center (top to bottom) of the chest. He ran downhill about 30 yards and dropped.

There was a small entrance wound on the right side, where the bullet passed through a rib. The heart and liver were in good condition, but the lungs were just a mass of jelly and the chest cavity was full of blood. But there was no exit wound on the left side. I wasn't exactly performing an autopsy or searching for the bullet, but I never did come across the bullet or any fragments. And there was NO exit wound. We skinned him out back in camp and still found no exit.

According to the ballistics charts, the bullet was moving about 2800 fps and carrying 3000 ft-lbs of energy when it connected on a medium-sized bull. Did it just break up in the chest cavity? I'm thinking that if the bullet expended ALL of it's energy on the target without exiting, that's a good thing. But I'm not sure about that, and I expected to find an exit.

So the questions are:
1. Why didn't the bullet exit?
2. Is this a concern?
3. Why am I not handloading? (That ammo is EXPENSIVE!)
 
#1 Get Nosler Partition bullets. Failsafes are great on smaller game but not as good on heavy, thick bodied game. Bullet tends to expend all energy on impact, and doesn't penetrate as well as the partitions.

#2 Big concern if you have to trail a wounded animal. Entrance wounds don't leave a very good blood trail to follow.

#3 Can't think of a reason. Ammunition is to expensive NOT to.:D
 
1. Why didn't the bullet exit?
2. Is this a concern?
3. Why am I not handloading? (That ammo is EXPENSIVE!)
Click to expand...

1. Get any bullet that will retain it's mass... Noslers are OK, but Barnes is better. If you like the "ballistic tips" Barnes has a new one called the MRX that has a tungsten core behind the all copper mushroom... :eek:

2. No, I've seen this happen with a number of bullets...
Once I had the same experience you had and all I could find of the bullet was a copper cup at the back of the BT. However, if you want the bullet to pass all the way through... see number 1. above... Barnes retains nearly 100% of original mass... :)

3. Your guess is as good as mine?? :rolleyes:
Reloading would be more fun and you could work up loads for accuracy that would surprise you. :D

If you'd rather not reload, get Federal Vital Shok which uses Barnes bullets... ;)
 
Funny-odd: A few years back, I heard a bit of discussion about the Fail Safe bullets, in south Georgia. Guys quit buying them because they didn't open up as other bullets did. Just blew on through.

Me, I dunno.

Art
 
Just working off of memory here, but about 10 years ago,Winchester brought a bullet out called "The Black Talon". Looked an awful lot like the Fail Safe looks now, only a lot harder. I think they quit making it because it was so hard it would not expand, and was detrimental to officers in the field with vests.

I'm just guessing, but do you suppose, the Fail Safe bullet, is a replacement for the Black Talon, only softer ?
 
I thought the Black Talon was a pistol bullet...???

The replacement is the same but no longer black... Ranger???

Did they make a rifle bullet called the Balck Talon too??? :confused:
 
The Black Talon is a pistol bullet.

This is kinda weird. I had always thought that the Failsafes were on the strong side, and intended to be used on large game (elk, bear, etc), and that is how Winchester markets them. I'm offering my non-expert, non-professional opinion that you got that one in a million fluke where a premium bullet fails to preform. It may have been made on a Friday afternoon. :confused: :p

That opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.
 
More dredging up from memory: I discovered AFTER loading and shooting some 150-grain .30 BTs and getting poor accuracy and pressure signs, per an article in a gun rag: BT jackets are harder than regular copper jackets. Don't load your normal pet load, but back off more than the usual five percent and work up.

Believe it, unless the manufacturing process has changed...

Art
 
It's entirely possible that the bullet stayed together and came out unnoticed as I was gutting the elk. I wasn't really searching for it at the time, just sort of half-way watching for it.

So the bullet may have performed as advertised, but it certainly didn't exit the other side. It did kill the elk with one shot, so I can't complain. I just expected it to pass through at that close range.

I appreciate everyone's input. Thanks!

Edit: Interesting article on bullet performance here.
 
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1. Why didn't the bullet exit?
2. Is this a concern?
3. Why am I not handloading? (That ammo is EXPENSIVE!)

#1- The bullet performed optimally. It expended all its energy INSIDE the animal, therefore it did not exit.
#2- The elk died as expected, no follow-up shot was required, and the bullet penetrated well. What are you supposed to be concerned about?
#3- I am not sure why you are not reloading, but after paying $2 per round for the factory stuff, I would venture a guess that you will start soon!

The recommendation for Nosler Partitions is OK, as the Nosler Partition used to be the standard against which all other hunting bullets are compared. They lose about 10-25% of their weight in a big tough animal, but they always work. But the recommendation for the Barnes MRX is ignoring the fact that the FailSafe bullet is constructed basically the same as the MRX, with the exception of the tungsten core (FailSafe has a lead core). The FailSafe has a solid copper front end with pre-scored petals that open up, same as the Barnes.
 
1. The bullet may have hit a bone and veered off course, traveling further down the side of the elk.
2. I wouldn't lose sleep over it.
3. Because the there's a good amount of difference between the $2 per round that you pay and the $.50 per round that I pay for .30-30. :D Then again, I'll probably never hunt elk.
 
Ok, I know very little by comparison to the fellas above.
Help me out here.
He went 30 yards. His lungs were a mass of jelly.
Is 30 yards too far? That is like, what, 1.28 seconds for an elk? From a dead stop? Because it was a lung shot, that should have the best chance to pass thru due to the air pockets on the lungs. It didn't. It exploded the lungs.

If no exit hole, the bullet isn't too hard or it would have sailed clean pass thru at 2800 fps. Right?
I shoot a 270 WSM and am concidering the same round for big game. Winchester Supreme Fail Safe.

It looks like the bullets work. Am I wrong to assume if it works, don't fix it?
This is a posative testimonial to me, not a negative unless I am missing something.
 
About 2 or 3 years ago one of the guys at the lease shot a small buck with a 30-30. Got a high lung shot on it, and it ran about 80 yards before it died.
NO BLOOD where it was standing and took me about 20 minutes to pick up small blood spots about 40 yards from where it was hit. After about an hour of looking for small spots of blood here and there, we finally found the deer. NO EXIT wound. When we cleaned the deer his lungs were mush, but it took a lot of time and trouble to find it.

If the deer goes down pretty close to the bang, then there's no problem, but if you don't get an exit wound, and the deer decides to run a while, they can cover a lot of ground before they die.(Especially here in SE Okla. as thick as the brush is)

I am not much of an expert on Fail safe bullets, but I have shot a LOT of Noslers and Combined Technologies bullet, and I can't think of a single time that one of my bullets hasn't gone through the game.

Front shoulders on a 300 lb hog are pretty thick, and the Nosler Partition, will go through both shoulders and leave a huge exit wound, letting the animal bleed profusly, so tracking, if need be, is easier.

I'm sure there are a lot of bullets out there, that will work just as well, but it is hard to get away from something that works.
 
As you say the bullet did exactly what you wanted and the animal was dead within a short distance. With high velocity rounds such as this 55 yds is very close indeed and they do very often expand very rapidly particularly on soft wet tissue like lungs ( mostly water) the same shot at 100 - 150yds you would have had an exit wound most likely and more so at greater distances, it would still have killed it ok but you dont get the explosive expansion at lower velocity/ greater range. Ive noticed this a lot with 243 and 270 as well using fast loads.
Just enjoy it and try some home loads, Nosler partition, Barnes Xs, etc are all good.
 
Help me out here.
Click to expand...

After reading all the responses, I've reached the same conclusion as you, Desertfox. The bullet worked as it should have.

I raised the question because my past experience with deer (never shot an elk before this one) is that the bullet should have exited. But you can't argue with a dead elk lying 30 yards from where you put a single bullet into it. I'll be taking the same ammo with me again this fall.

But I am starting to look seriously at reloading equipment. Thanks, everyone!
 
I am going to try the Nosler Partition. Too many experienced hunters recommend them to me. I suppose a good side by side comparison would answer some questions on flight and accuracy. The expansion/mushrooming of the round and how well it stays together are the factors unseen to me, until I field dress the animal.
Barnes-X looks like a similar bullet but, I have found some noslers that I am going to field test next week.
Once again, experienced hunters recommended the Nosler and not just one or two.
 
+1 for the noslers
+1 for the Barnes triple x (no experience with the MRX)

bullet could have stayed in there and richocheted around and ended up lodged in some other organs.

I have been shooting elk with the 7mm Rem mag and 338 win mag and never had a problem with not exiting. Couple of years ago shot a nice medium bull elk at around 120 yards (high lung shot also) with the Federal Premium Vital-Shok Ammunition 7mm Remington Magnum 160 Grain Barnes Triple-Shock X-Bullets and he stumbled and fell 15 yards later, huge exit would no need to worry about blood trail. Same thing with another large bull elk at about 200 yards with the Federal Premium Vital-Shok Ammunition 338 Winchester Magnum 210 Grain Nosler Partitions . Dropped over dead with a massive exit right behind the shoulder, poured out the insides.
 
I know a fella who absoultely swears by them, he shoots .270 same as I do and tells me he's never had to use a follow-up shot with these bullets.

Personally after shooting several mule deer with a .243 with Nosler partitions i would go that route if you are not comfortable with your current round.

It sounds to me like that was a perfect kill but Its always nice to have that extra little bit of insurance offered by an exit wound.
 
Desert Fox

The Nosler Partition and the Barnes X are on the same side in the battle for the best bullets...

I have used the Nosler Partitions for forty+ years...

These last few years, I have switched to the Barnes Triple X because it retains 99-100% of original mass.

The Nosler retains about 65-75%.

Which one do you think will be more certain to pass through a large and/or more difficult to kill big game animal like Elk, Hogs, Moose, Bear and large Mule deer...

I have seen a big bull elk run about 400 yards into a stand of trees after being hit quite well with a .338 Win Mag. If I hadn't been up on high ground the hunter would probably not have found his bull... I was able to point him the way from my vantage point...
Hmmmmmm, Pointer ;)

I have read of a cow elk that ran off about 200+ yards into a stand of trees... with two .270 Win slugs in her.

The hunter was an experienced local Montana man and was attacked and killed by a She-Grizzly while he was gutting the cow...

You will not be sorry if you use the Federal Vital-Shok.
Federal teamed up with Barnes to make this exclusive cartridge for a very good reason...

A cheaper way to solve your problem is the new Fusion bullet... Great retention of 80 - 90%.

The reason you've heard more from the Nosler is that it's been more widely available...until now.

The Brand new MRX Bullet is the epitomy of game bullets... for now it will be a little difficult to come by... but, next year it should be available in several popular calibers. :)
 
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