Winchester 9mm 147gr Black Talon in Clear Ballistics gel.

5

5pins

New member


I was able to lay my hands on a small number of the controversial Winchester 9mm Black Talons. Demonized by politicians and gun control groups when it came out in the early 90’s. Designed to pass the FBI standard how does it stand up today to the latest offerings in the world of defense ammo.

Six rounds into two 16 inch blocks of Clear Ballistics gel at 10 feet. Test gun used is a Sig P229 with a 4.9-inch barrel and a S&W shield with a 3.1-inch barrel. Two rounds into the bare gel and two into gel covered with heavy clothing from the Sig. Finally, two rounds fired from the Shield into the bare gel.

The first round fired info the bare gel had a velocity of 983fps penetrated to 16 inches and expanded to .55 inches. Round two also penetrated 16 inches with a velocity of 986fps and expanded to .61 inches.



I didn’t get any velocity reading for either of the rounds fired through the heavy clothing. The first hit the table top about halfway through the first so I didn’t measure the penetration but it still expanded to .54 inches. Round two penetrated to 15.5 inches expanded to .52 inches.



The first round out of Shield into bare gel had a velocity of 939fps penetrated to 19 inches and expanded to .58 inches. Round two expanded to .52 inches, penetrated to 19.5 inches and had a velocity of 920fps.

 
Looks like some good reliable penetration and expansion to me. 147 grain is pretty heavy so the velocity you got is pretty good. Too bad those rounds is pretty hard to come by and pretty expensive.
 
Loose the black paint, Rebranded Ranger T, go about your business.
Click to expand...

But the black paint makes it so much more sinister!!! And having "Talon" in the name is so much scarier than "Ranger" (unless you're talking about Walker, Texas Ranger :p:D)
 
I remember choosing Black Talons for defense loads before Winchester pulled them. They were a good bullet, and the current "replacement" is good as well.

I find it amusing when I hear someone say that the 9mm is so effective today because of the recent improvements in bullet technology. The Black Talon, Gold Dot, and XTP were all developed over 20 years ago, and still perform very well by today's standards.
 
I find it amusing when I hear someone say that the 9mm is so effective today because of the recent improvements in bullet technology. The Black Talon, Gold Dot, and XTP were all developed over 20 years ago, and still perform very well by today's standards.
Click to expand...

The Black Talon has been improved on...the Golddot is now offered in the G2 bullet... so the advancements continue
 
I remember the old radio host G.Gordon Liddy talking about these and all the controversy and said that they should be painted pink and called Peace Corp Bullets.

I have 5 of them in 44 mag.
 
I was with American Rifleman magazine when the Black Talon came out. I was talking with Winchester's PR director one afternoon and told him flat out that the name was a huge mistake. He disagreed, but a short time later it became a big issue and caused Winchester a lot of problems.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
 
Mike, you're right. Sinister name and the shooting of a law officer at 101 California Street in San Francisco resulted in an out-of-court settlement whereby Winchester withdrew it from the civilian market. At least they gave the public Ranger.

BTW, at the time of the shooting I was waiting to testify and was hiding in the District Attorney's law library at the Whore of Justice (our nickname for the Hall of Justice).
 
I consider the black talon to be one of the most completely stupid ideas in recent history. They did plenty of damage all by themselves, black, talon, putting out photographs of those incredibly sharp, hooked claws, the words that they used, the claims of lethal effects, promoting it to yahoos like me who were already believed to be insane, murdering psychopaths, and in general, doing something that was more irresponsible than selling plutonium on eBay. Everyone who saw it who hated guns farted out kittens. Even I had a spastic attack, because I saw that it would end badly, and very few people that I knew at the time believed me.

Then you had that various press outlets that used words like ripping, tearing, shredding, knife like claws, lethal, Buzz saw, and even more damaging blathering.

I believe that there were already several bullets that probably worked better in some areas of testing, and I believe that there are currently at least a dozen designs that stand shoulder high over the past performance of the talon.

I believe that the entire shooting community took a shot to the sack over black talon.
 
I consider the black talon to be one of the most completely stupid ideas in recent history. They did plenty of damage all by themselves, black, talon, putting out photographs of those incredibly sharp, hooked claws, the words that they used, the claims of lethal effects, promoting it to yahoos like me who were already believed to be insane, murdering psychopaths, and in general, doing something that was more irresponsible than selling plutonium on eBay. Everyone who saw it who hated guns farted out kittens. Even I had a spastic attack, because I saw that it would end badly, and very few people that I knew at the time believed me.
Click to expand...

Just so you know Brian, I laughed a good bit. Especially the gun haters who farted out kittens...
 
Have several boxes of the original 45 acp 230 BT's sitting in shoe box in closet. Kept them in the house 45, maybe they are worth more money to someone all these years later?
 
ratshooter said:
I remember the old radio host G.Gordon Liddy talking about these and all the controversy and said that they should be painted pink and called Peace Corp Bullets.

I have 5 of them in 44 mag.
Click to expand...
I'm still waiting for someone to make Fluffy Cuddle-Bunny Pacifier rounds....and I dare any prosecutor to say that name to a jury when prosecuting a SD case.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
 
That may be the right choice. I carry 125. My overall goal is to get at least ten inches and the 125 in my load performed just about as well as the heavier one, but expanded diameters were a bit larger.

In any case, whatever choice I make will turn out to be the wrong one. I will carry a nine to the park and every critter at the zoo will break out and charge when they hear my voice.

It's human nature to expect the best and have confidence in the eventual outcome.

My grandfather used to tell me "God gave you legs so you can run away when your 9mm doesn't stop the bad guy". My grandfather was pretty smart.
 
Thanks cor using up some of that legendary ammunition to provide us with these pictures and data. I am a newer shooter and Black Talon was long discontinued by the time I started shooting, but I love the legend of the Black Talon rounds.

That performance from such short barreled handguns is really impressive, too. Definitely contending with modern ammo. I'm a god dot man but I'd use black talons instead if I had any.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top