Winchester 223 45 gr HP good for self defense?
- Thread starter veprdude
- Start date
wild cat mccane
New member
I would add, staying with Winchester also isn't that great.
Fusion/Gold Dot by Vista Outdoors are better.
Fusion/Gold Dot by Vista Outdoors are better.
bamaranger
New member
volunteers??
There will be no volunteers to take a hit from that round at any angle, while wearing a jeans jacket. Not ideal, not tactical, not a dedicated SD round, but a rifle round, in excess of 3000 fps, delivering all its energy in a soft target, will be very destructive and more effective than many if not all handgun rounds.
Not ideal, but not worthless either.
There will be no volunteers to take a hit from that round at any angle, while wearing a jeans jacket. Not ideal, not tactical, not a dedicated SD round, but a rifle round, in excess of 3000 fps, delivering all its energy in a soft target, will be very destructive and more effective than many if not all handgun rounds.
Not ideal, but not worthless either.
If its a varmint bullet, it will break up when it hits anything. Good for reducing the odds of it going through a wall and still being dangerous.
If you plan to stop people with a bullet built to stop woodchucks, you go right ahead. I wouldn't chose it for defense, if I had other options.
If you plan to stop people with a bullet built to stop woodchucks, you go right ahead. I wouldn't chose it for defense, if I had other options.
It would do just fine. At 3250 fps MV and over half a ton of ME, the "slap" effect would be enormous at self-defense ranges, especially if you're doing an ammo dump from a 30-round mag. A facial hit would be like Mike Tyson slamming you with a softball bat as hard as he could. Um, no thanks.
There's more than a bit of difference between what will work in combat and what is justifiable in civilian self defense.
Somehow, I doubt a prosecutor would look on a 30rnd mag dump as justifiable in a civilian context. AND. do ALWAYS remember that you, as an individual, are responsible for every single round you fire, where it goes, what it does, and what the damage costs.
You don't have a police dept or other govt agency with deep pockets to help you out or cya.
I think telling someone to do burst fire or mag dumps, WHEN the topic is civilian self defense, in the USA, to be poor advice.
Don't worry about it, it will stop a bad guy even tho it's a varmint bullet. It may have better/more penetration than needed. When I started loading in the mid 60s, I loaded a 70 gr Herters .243 Hp in .243, a varmint bullet, It would shoot thru 1/2" cold roll steel. Really surprised me. Varmint bullets are supposedly designed to explode when they hit the ground, not ricochet. You don't want to be shot with one of them.
yeah, well, Herter's bullets were the best, they told you so...repeatedly,,
Was that 70gr one of the wasp-waisted ones??
If a varmint bullet acts like a varmint bullet it will create a horrific surface wound on a man sized target, and may not reach the vitals. If it doesn't, it will generally act like any other bullet and reach the vitals and probably, beyond.
A nasty shallow wound quite often is enough to get a human attacker to change their mind. A round penetrating a vital spot doesn't care if they change their mind, or not.
Was that 70gr one of the wasp-waisted ones??
If a varmint bullet acts like a varmint bullet it will create a horrific surface wound on a man sized target, and may not reach the vitals. If it doesn't, it will generally act like any other bullet and reach the vitals and probably, beyond.
A nasty shallow wound quite often is enough to get a human attacker to change their mind. A round penetrating a vital spot doesn't care if they change their mind, or not.
Yep, it was "worlds greatest bullet" but not the wasp waisted one, never tried those, they cost too much for poor folks. A varmint bullet isn't my first choice for self defense but I'm pretty sure it would discourage most anyone you applied it to.
Everything Herter's sold was Worlds Best, I bought from them because it was worlds cheapest. The stuff worked tho. Too bad the democrats put them out of business.
Everything Herter's sold was Worlds Best, I bought from them because it was worlds cheapest. The stuff worked tho. Too bad the democrats put them out of business.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
Well, having actually seen multiple people shot with 45gr .223 now, I have some thoughts on the matter.
If you get that classic, B-21 pose, where you have a full frontal torso and the hands are at the side, then 45gr varmint loads have a lot of potential. They’ll make huge cavities with very shallow penetration; but because your average grown man is around 8-9” deep that’s not a problem.
However, if your average target is, say pointing a gun back at you, then his arms are typically extended right over his center mass. In that event, a 45gr varmint bullet that strikes an extended arm, is going to break that bone spectacularly and then the tiny remaining fragments will spray the chest and few will penetrate deeply enough you can’t pick them out with tweezers. Good news is that arm will be broken/smashed.
If for example, instead of extending a weapon towards you, the target does something insensible, like say turn away from you, you have the same problem - just with more meat, fat, and thicker bones intervening.
Or the target might be prone, or behind a car door, or a common household appliance, or any one of a dozen things that will dramatically reduce penetration on a small varmint bullet. But if you get that B21 shot, they are aces.
If you get that classic, B-21 pose, where you have a full frontal torso and the hands are at the side, then 45gr varmint loads have a lot of potential. They’ll make huge cavities with very shallow penetration; but because your average grown man is around 8-9” deep that’s not a problem.
However, if your average target is, say pointing a gun back at you, then his arms are typically extended right over his center mass. In that event, a 45gr varmint bullet that strikes an extended arm, is going to break that bone spectacularly and then the tiny remaining fragments will spray the chest and few will penetrate deeply enough you can’t pick them out with tweezers. Good news is that arm will be broken/smashed.
If for example, instead of extending a weapon towards you, the target does something insensible, like say turn away from you, you have the same problem - just with more meat, fat, and thicker bones intervening.
Or the target might be prone, or behind a car door, or a common household appliance, or any one of a dozen things that will dramatically reduce penetration on a small varmint bullet. But if you get that B21 shot, they are aces.
no, varmint ammo is exactly what you do not want for defense. rapid expansion very limited penetration. if its defensive ammo you would be be betting your life on, i would NEVER use varmint ammo. You want a good bonded or molithic bullet (sollid copper/barns type) minimum 55g, i would prefer 62g or more.