Win 1300 Defender Mag Lockup

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enstorm

New member
I have never seen such a screwed-up design feature like this shotgun has. It's a basic street-sweeper, so the main purpose of the thing is to function easily and reliably. However, unless the gun is cocked, it is impossible to load the magazine. For example, if you cock and dry fire an empty gun, or, on a more practical level, say you just clean it and the gun is uncocked, you cannot then feed the first shell into the mag, it'll get stuck about 1/3 the way in. Then you have to force it out. So, just to load the thing, you have to cock it, then load the mag, and it's ready to chamber a round. Unless you want it cocked all the time on an empty chamber when you have it stored in your favorite place, you then need to dry snap it. After that, you can cycle rounds from the loaded mag. But, you can't reload the mag again without cocking the gun again.

The first of two of these shotguns I owned, I returned, seeing that there was an obvious defect. I got a nib straight across trade from the place I bought it. Amazingly, the new shotgun performs exactly the same way, every time. So, this must be a designed-in "feature." Even the Mossberg bird gun I've had for the past 40 years has a superior design in this regard. Stick a shell into the tube mag, and it goes in.

I haven't seen any posts about this particular defect, but I admit I haven't looked very hard, so I'm wondering if I got the only 2 m1300s with this deficiency, or if I'm somehow overlooking a basic break-in trick or something. But, if this is the way this "personal defense weapon" is supposed to work, it's a joke, and a dangerous one at that.
 
enstorm, I just tried loading my 1300 with it in the cocked and uncocked mode and,in both instances, it accepted shells flawlessly.
It seems that you are one very unlucky person to have been the recepient of two successive lemons or that your loading procedure is incorrect (though I can't imagine how as loading the 1300 is pretty straight-forward and not dissimilar from most slide-action shotguns that I'm familiar with.)
 
This is one of the reasons the Winchester shotguns are not allowed on the range in Oklahoma's Police Academy. The other reasons, from what I gather, is that they are impossible to put on "crusier safe", i.e., mag loaded, uncocked, safety on.

Never shot one, dont care too. The 870 does it all, and better, and the Mossberg is cheaper.
 
Okay, so now I'm getting confused. Sounds like there is something inheriently "not sound" with the winchester's design. Is this a design flaw or just a preference type of arguement?
 
This thread is confusing to me. Some seem to agree and some to disagree. I just unloaded my 1300 defender, put a snap cap in the chamber and dry-fired it, releasing the striker. I then easily loaded six shells into the magazine. I guess I don't see the problem and have never had a problem with this gun or the 1300 I often hunt with. I agree the 870 is a slick shotgun (I have two) but don't see any problem with the 1300. Also, the safety "seems" to go on but since it is uncocked, I can't tell for sure that it is engaged. Never tried putting the safety on in it's uncocked state before, seeing no reason to. P.S. Just repeated the process with the same result.
 
I am interested in info on the Oklahoma Acadamy position on the shotgun. If there are some links or other sources on that, please post them. This may be a design issue since (1) other people have had the same problem; and (2) the exact same problem affected the two 1300 defenders I had. Like I said in the original post, I bought one (new), it had this issue, and I returned it, thinking it was defective. The new one I received does exactly the same thing, with any ammo I've tried (slugs, different brands of buckshot). On the other hand, it may not be a design issue since (1) it seems some people don't have this problem; and (2) at least the first one I had did not do this 100% of the time (although the replacement has).

I agree with whoever suggested the m870. I went with the 1300 instead because it was cheaper, and I've regretted it ever since. Also, the Mossberg short barrel pump seems worth considering. I'm going to contact Winchester about this and see if they tell me that the gun is supposed to do this. This will just be out of curiousity since either way, I'll use mine as a trade-in for the 870 or Mossberg.
 
Laz: The safety on most repeating shotguns cannot be put on "safe" when uncocked.

Enstorm: I checked with a friend who also owns a 1300 and, as recounted in my earlier post, his too can be loaded via the magazine, irrespective of whether it's cocked or uncocked. It would appear that this is not a design issue.
 
I have a 1300 that I use as a patrol shotgun. It is utterly reliable, and easy to load, cocked or not.

I believe that your problem might be that the action is not closed all the way when loading. If the hammer has been dropped and the slide is not all the way forward--even by a fraction of an inch--it is difficult to get shells into the magazine.

Make sure that the forearm is all the way forward, or cock the piece, then load to capacity. It is a simple matter to press the action lock release (by the trigger guard) when you want to rack the pump.
 
Powderman, you may be absolutely right. I followed you advice and the magazine feeds fine. I've got to say, though, that if gravity alone can let the slide drop ever so slightly that this happens, it's a problem that should have been eliminated years ago. Anyhow, thanks for the replies, and I'll keep the gun unless the same thing happens again.
 
I believe that your problem might be that the action is not closed all the way when loading. If the hammer has been dropped and the slide is not all the way forward--even by a fraction of an inch--it is difficult to get shells into the magazine.
Click to expand...


How about that. I just rechecked my gun and you are exactally right.
 
On many shotguns, if the pump handle is slightly to the rear, the gun can't be loaded.

This also happens to the Remington 870, so it's NOT a "design flaw".
All guns have "quirks", and this is a pump shotgun version.

People often brag about how their shotgun almost opens itself if it's pointed up and the trigger is pulled.

That's nice, but when the forearm moves back, the gun can't be loaded, so it may NOT be so good.

The "fix" is to either point the gun muzzle down when loading, or hold the slide forward while loading.
 
One of the selling points of the Winchester 1300's action is that, the way it's designed, it unlocks immediately on firing. That means- IMMEDIATELY! It's probably the fastest cycling pumpgun currently in production, and the downside of that action is that the fore-end is "looser" than the Remington 870, more prone to ride back to at least a slight degree when the action's uncocked, and you do have to pay attention in keeping it all the way forward while you're loading the tube.
What you see as a design flaw, others see as a design benefit. The 1200 I carried years ago would cycle itself halfway back on firing it one-armed, Massad Ayoob commented during one training class with him that it was one of the fastest manually operated cop shotguns on the market.
I borrowed a 1300 from Winchester last year for some photos, in shooting it I found the same features as my old 1200- quick action, and no loading problems as long as you keep the fore-end forward.
If I can get six rounds off with a Winchester in the same time it takes to get five off in a Remmie, I'll gladly put up with that loading "problem".
Sort of like the AR15 vs AK argument- the AR is much faster to reload with a new magazine, but the AK is bone-dry reliable and stepping on one of its 30-rounders won't render it out of action.
What's your primary concern? Mine is emptying the gun on demand, not how picky the fore-end is in loading it.
In this case it's operator error, not design flaw. Learn to do it right, or get another brand. :)
Denis
 
AsI stated, I have never been around the 1300.

I do know, from experience, that the Winchester shotguns are not allowed on the range at CLEET (The Oklahoma Law Enforcement academy). The reason , as stated, was the inability to place the wepon on cruiser safe, and the inability to load the shells when the weapon is not cocked.

I do not know if this was an issue that has been remedied, and CLEET is still behind the times, as they are on everything else, or if it is genuine. I do knw that two cadets who arrived with 1300s were not allowed to use them, and one had to borrow my 870 to use.
 
My 870 safeties can be activated when the action's uncocked. I don't recall that ever being an issue when I carried the 1200 over 20 years ago, and had no reason to try it with the loaner 1300.
No disrespect intended to CLEET, but I don't see the loading "problem" as a problem, and as far as the "Cruiser Safe" thing goes, I don't consider that an issue, either.
First time I've ever heard the term, and I'm sure the CLEET admin has reasons for it (which I'd like to hear), but I carried my shotguns with chamber empty & safety off. That way, it was ready to go with just a quick pump. No need to add an extra step that might be neglected under stress.
There are a number of ways to carry a defensive shotgun- empty chamber/safety on, empty chamber/safety off, loaded chamber/safety on, depending on your perceived need for it in a hurry, and departments may or may not choose for you.
In the case of the Winchester, would CLEET's reasoning be that they were concerned about the fore-end bouncing itself to the rear in a vertical car rack during the shift? If so, there are ways to avoid that (changing to a different rack, for instance).
My first department didn't buy us racks, we carried the guns (made of wood back then :D ) any way we wanted to. My last department bought both vertical and horizontal gun racks.
Any idea of the reason for insisting the shotgun be on safe when uncocked?
Denis
 
I think it's interesting that a weapon specifically designed to be used under "stress conditions" cannot be reloaded easily on, say, a nice, calm day in the sagebrush. Anyway, knowing what the situation is, it really may just be a minor issue that a little practice will make you forget. I guess this is basically a "preference" thing, like someone said. However, I'm not sold on the idea that the micro-fraction of a second you supposedly save in pumping a round through is worth it.
 
My 870 safeties can be activated when the action's uncocked. I don't recall that ever being an issue when I carried the 1200 over 20 years ago, and had no reason to try it with the loaner 1300.
No disrespect intended to CLEET, but I don't see the loading "problem" as a problem, and as far as the "Cruiser Safe" thing goes, I don't consider that an issue, either.
First time I've ever heard the term, and I'm sure the CLEET admin has reasons for it (which I'd like to hear), but I carried my shotguns with chamber empty & safety off. That way, it was ready to go with just a quick pump. No need to add an extra step that might be neglected under stress.
There are a number of ways to carry a defensive shotgun- empty chamber/safety on, empty chamber/safety off, loaded chamber/safety on, depending on your perceived need for it in a hurry, and departments may or may not choose for you.
In the case of the Winchester, would CLEET's reasoning be that they were concerned about the fore-end bouncing itself to the rear in a vertical car rack during the shift? If so, there are ways to avoid that (changing to a different rack, for instance).
My first department didn't buy us racks, we carried the guns (made of wood back then ) any way we wanted to. My last department bought both vertical and horizontal gun racks.
Any idea of the reason for insisting the shotgun be on safe when uncocked?
Denis
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In my opinion, CLEET's stance on the cruiser safe mode is nothing more than lawyer speak and civil liability proofing. Other then that, I could find no viable reason to do so.

As for the rack issue, that is definitely not the case, as CLEET makes no stance on the whereabouts or method of racks. Personally, I feel that CLEET is approximately 50 years behind the modern combat shooting curve, and this simply reflects this in another way.
 
Enstorm,
If you find the speed useful, then the Winchester may be useful for you. If not, and you're not willing to learn how to use the gun, then you should probably be buying another brand.
I carried that 1200 for about five years, and that included qualifying with it departmentally, and using it for the entire shotgun section of the Ayoob class I went through. I had no problems in loading it. Like any other gun, you either learn it or lose it.
There are ways to deal with the Winchester action, if you're willing to take the time to think the gun through. For administrative loading (such as at the beginning of a training course of fire, before each shift if required, whatever), tilt the muzzle down, nudge the slide forward all the way, load the magazine. For reloading in the middle of continuing action, if you top it up while there's still a round in the chamber, the slide is locked forward & you just load as needed through the loading port regardless of the muzzle angle. If you've shot it dry and your position doesn't allow a muzzle-down reload, run the slide all the way open, roll one in the ejection port, run the slide back forward to lock it, and fill the magazine. Which is what you should be doing to get an empty defensive pumpgun back into action anyway.
Really, it doesn't have to be a big deal.

LD,
I'd still like to hear CLEET's reasoning, if anybody else can explain it. If there's some inherent safety problem they've discovered in handling or "cruising" with the 1200, I'm interested.
The main reason I traded mine off was just because it had a low bead front sight that shot slugs about a foot high, and I got tired of losing time in compensating for it. My first 870 had a higher bead (the best upgrade I could afford at the time), which wasn't as precise as sights, but still shot slugs to point of aim inside 25-30 yards. I still have that 870, it's now a 14-inch Scattergun Tech Border Patrol model, and iron sights are highly recommended on any defensive pump or semi-auto of you plan to ever use slugs.
It also, by the way, has gotten so smooth over the years the fore-end will start back enough to stop a shell from loading if I tilt the muzzle up. I just work with it.
Denis
 
The main reason I traded mine off was just because it had a low bead front sight that shot slugs about a foot high,
Click to expand...

How long was your barrel? I have the 18", and it prints to point of aim to 50 yards with 2 3/4 inch Winchester or Federal slugs. I'm also sporting a Knoxx CompStock and a side saddle.

Incidentally, if I fire the gun one handed, it will cycle the slide hard enough to completely eject the shell. Also, if I hold it straight up and press the slide release, the slide falls almost halfway down. Very slick, indeed!
 
Training

Dfariswheel
+1

No disrespect folks.

This is a matter of Training.

Gun must fit shooter. It makes no nevermind what Team Walrus uses. If the gun does not fit YOU - it is of no good to you. Gun fit allows one to reach and manipulate controls, to properly load and unload, snick on/ off safeties, do administrative drills.

Training. Once the gun is fit to YOU, get training.

Repetition become habit - habit becomes faith.

Under timed drills and under stress is when gun fit, the inability to reach controls, and not being able to mount to face - comes to light. Not to mention if the gun don't fit - shooter won't hit.

Hence the reason I am guilty, and gets fussed at for suggesting starting with 25 repetitions a day and working up to 100 a day of mounting gun to face and dry firing.

Get some dummy shells, for instance get the Fiocchi lavendar ones, reload with spent primer and fill with something, seal the crimp good. Spent time with 4Rules , no live ammo around, only the dummy rounds and do nothing but load and unload, dryfire, shuck, repeat. Do this without looking, dim light, no light. Use the fingers to know if gun is loaded or clear.

Walk around the house, garage, barn - wherever - with that shotgun, do what you normally do - with that shotgun. The idea is for that shotgun to become a natural extension of you.

There is a reason for the old saw " Beware the man with one gun- he knows how to use it".

Nothing wrong with appreciating firearms,collecting them, or similar.

Then again while it is a good idea to change underwear and socks each day - it is often NOT a good idea to always be changing guns, accessories, ammo, and such.

If the balloon goes up - one needs to have that extension of themselves of a gun in hand.

Having countless hours of training, practice, pattern boards, repetition of mounting to face,using dummy shells to load, unload, dryfire , shuck, repeat, with a gun that fits, with a minimun of 200 rds of proven carry loads ...is real comforting.

Run'em

Steve
 
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