Wilson 870 - Is it worth $1000

No 870 is worth $1k,
my God it's a shotgun nothing else.
All that "hype add on stuff" aint gonna help
you one bit in shotgun range.
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And to YOU that might be true to someone else, it might not be

VALUE has NOTHING to do with only price, but it is a combination of price, quality, components, time, immediate gratification, etc.

If it was strictly price, NO ONE would pay $1.49 for a bottle of water while traveling at the C store - but at THAT moment, it has a value to that person - same with guns

Just because YOU wouldn't spend the money doesn't mean others don't look at it as a great deal for them and their circumstances
 
Good posts everyone. It's all helpful, just what I asked for. Oneounceload and Creeper's posts resonate well with me. Probably because it's as they say, I like this gun.

I have a Benelli semiauto and a 625 Citori for hunting and love them both for the right application. At $850 this gun would be worth it to me.

Thanks.

--ken
 
Yes, and in this case, Wilson has chosen some really crummy component parts, (e.g. the choice of base gun).
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Almost every custom 870 builder chooses the Express as their base gun, because it's virtually the same gun as the Police. Keep drinking the Kool-aid.

There's a reason posters are encouraging the OP to ask about $850. That's where the value of "competence time" meets that talent being unleashed upon such a poorly made, finished, and Cerebus Group cheapened, base gun.

For instance, none of Wilson's packages purport to replace the 870 Express' MIM extractor and ejector or to replace the plastic trigger plate and other trigger group parts that are made from aluminum on higher end 870 models.
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Again, the Express is virtually the same gun as the "higher end 870 models".

To begin with, there is no ejector upgrade, as you suggest, because all 870's use the same ejector. So, let's go through the actual differences between the Express and the "higher end models":

Here is the deal with the Police vs. the Express (and I have owned and built several of each).

Generally, out of the box, the Police will have a smoother action, as they are finished a little better. This can easily be remedied with 0000 steel wool and shooting, over time: no big deal to me, although others may differ on how important this is to them. Wilson finishes the gun superbly.

The following are the ONLY internal parts that are different between the Express and the Police:

1. The trigger housing on the Police is pressed metal, that on the Express is polymer - advantage Express, as the polymer trigger housing is known to be more durable (ask any Remington armorer). I have bent a few Police guards, but have never damaged an Express guard. Note: I have recently learned that some of the newer P guns are now also using the polymer trigger guards.

2. The extractor on the Police is forged, the Express is MIM. Upgrade the extractor: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=10745/Product/EXTRACTOR Cost $14.99 (I always replace the extractor, but have never seen a MIM extractor break on an Express).

3. The Police has a stronger carrier dog follower spring than the Express. This is also an easily upgrade: http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=10763/Product/CARRIER-LATCH-SPRINGIt is listed as a carrier latch spring for the 1100 and 11-87, but this is the correct spring used in the Police. Cost $4.84 The interesting thing is that Remington charges the same for either spring (the P is black, and that is the only way to tell them apart). So why doesn't Remington use the same spring in both guns? Marketing.

4. The Police uses a stronger magazine spring on the 6+1 versions (I believe that both 4+1 versions now use the same spring). Purchase a new spring from Wolff: http://www.gunsprings.com/Rifles%20%26%20Shotguns/REMINGTON/870,%20878,%2011-48,%20SPT-48,%20SPT-58/cID2/mID108/dID216#606 Cost $8.99 The Wilson extension comes standard with the Wolff spring.

5. Sear spring - As of several years ago both versions now use the identical spring (the one from the Express).

Those three, easily replaced parts cost about $30 and are the only differences that matter between the Express and the Police; the rest is simply marketing. Most of the custom 870 builders, such as Wilson Combat, Nighthawk, and AI&P Tactical use the 870 Express platform because it is basically the same gun at a lower cost.

Gats Italian, get your facts straight, sir.
 
First of all, I wasn't saying you get a better extractor or ejector in a higher end 870 like the Police, which is a Remington marketing gimmick, you get a forged set of those parts in the Wingmaster.

Rather than "virtually being the same gun," the real reason to use the Express, is the maximization of profit. It's rougher, already has a fit and finish level easy to improve upon, and it was built to a low price point.

What I was saying is that instead of upgrading the cheap parts, which would be their standard approach on a 1911, Wilson's shotgun approach largely consists of slapping on aftermarket parts and slipping in one improved magazine spring, coating the rougher Express and shipping it out with an extreme markup.
 
Yes, I think most anything Wilson Combat touches ...makes it a better gun that it was to start with.

I have a few of their 1911's ...and if I wanted a tactical pump gun / I'd go with a Wilson Combat upgraded 870. If I wanted a semi-auto tactical shotgun - I'd go with the Benelli M-4.
 
It's not worth it to me, $1000 will buy four or five of the 870s I prefer - which are older Express guns. 870s are so modular it's easy to set them up pretty much however you want with relatively few skills/tools.

But if it's worth it to YOU - go for it.
 
I've shot them before, actually placed first over all at the 2009 IDPA nationals shotgun side match with one. Nice but not $1000 nice, better stuff out there for that amount of money.
 
First of all, I wasn't saying you get a better extractor or ejector in a higher end 870 like the Police, which is a Remington marketing gimmick, you get a forged set of those parts in the Wingmaster.
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The ejector is the same, as I said. The extractor on the Wingmaster and Police is forged. As I said, I always replace the MIM extractor on an 870, even though I have never seen one fail. I do not consider this a marketing gimmick.

Rather than "virtually being the same gun," the real reason to use the Express, is the maximization of profit. It's rougher, already has a fit and finish level easy to improve upon, and it was built to a low price point.
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Other than a few, easily replaceable parts, the level of finish (internally and externally) on the Wingmaster (and, to a lesser extent, the Police) is the difference between the guns. Remington marketing is the reason that they have been able to create a large price differential between the Express and the Wingmaster and Police, which are all virtually the same gun.

What I was saying is that instead of upgrading the cheap parts, which would be their standard approach on a 1911, Wilson's shotgun approach largely consists of slapping on aftermarket parts and slipping in one improved magazine spring, coating the rougher Express and shipping it out with an extreme markup.
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As I have said, the two parts that Wilson does not upgrade, the extractor and carrier dog follower spring, can be replaced for $19 (if one chooses to do so). What Wilson adds to the gun, in addition to the third-party accessories, is a level of finish, worked-over action, and a coating that is second to none. Wilson does not simply "coat a rough Express and ship it out". In the case of the OP, I think that the gun, plus the cost of the added components, plus the work that Wilson does to the gun is worth $850. As usual YMMV.
 
I agree it's worth $850 the debate here, as it were, is it worth the MSRP, the "normal" street price, or even a grand. The consensus seems to be that it is not. Please note that the OP has not been offered to buy the specimen at $850.00, but at $1k.
 
Gotta admit this thread leaves me a little puzzled.

I've put at least 50K shells through my various 870s and oodles more through agency weapons. Total new parts, 2 firing pin springs, both in one 870TB, a well used and cherished trap gun.

I see people here talk about replacing MIM parts with forged ones, but I DO NOT SEE THEM SAYING THE OLD ONES FAILED.

What's the truth? Are you replacing perfectly good parts on a suppostion?
 
^ Generally, I would agree, but when your life is on the line a couple inexpensive parts will increase reliability - i.e. the "Police" grade. A few extra dollars is well worth it - which is why I would only buy an 870 from AIP tactical, for less $$$ than a "P" grade 870. Here is explaintation from their web site:

"All AI&P Tactical shotguns are built on the Remington 870. I will not build on anything else as I am a Remington Factory Certified Law Enforcement Armorer, certified on the 870 Police and 11-87-Police and will not build nor even work on other weapons as I am not certified on them. Except for the models built on the Police receivers all AI&P Tactical Shotguns are the same. All are built on new Remington 870 magnum receivers. We bead blast them and parkerize them. We upgrade the trigger groups and bolt. the bolt on the Express model and the blot on the P model are the exact same bolt, same matte finish and all the same parts except for the extractor. I change the extractor to the solid steel one that comes on the P model and thus a P model bolt. The trigger groups are on a polymer housing or you can upgrade to cast but all have the same internal parts. I have found the polymer to be completely durable and stays cleaner internally. I have the polymer housing on all of my weapons as do all my employees."
 
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Really not much to "argue" about. An 870 Express will work for a long time as you know based on your extensive experience. The up-grade parts can be had for around $50.00 and per AIP, wth the upgrades: "I don't know the life expectancy of one of these weapons as I have never seen one worn out if cared for properly." I am no expert and would only reiterate what Scattergun Bob and AIP Tactical recommend. Accordng to Mr. Scattergun,

"I still have a unfired 870P in the safe and recently I hauled it down to the shop to compare with some express HD guns that came in. After examining both side by side my original thoughts STILL stand, you get what you pay for and there is a difference in fit, finish and quality between the 870P and the 870 express regardless of what name Remington packages the Express by."

and

"In closing let me remind you that I am in the personal protection business and am addressing the Express as a defense weapon. If it is a hunting gun, we can be more forgiving of the above mentioned parts."

AIP site says:

" I love building weapons for you guys but I would be remiss if I did not tell you this. If money is tight and you need an Remington 870 for protection or duty. Go to any Gun shop or Sporting goods store and buy a Remington 870 Home Defense model # 25077. It will come with a Remington LE 2 round extension, bead sight barrel with a fixed Cyl Bore choke. It is the best value and best made out there. It is 100% dependable and you can trust it with your life..............Latter when you are in a better financial situation you can send it to me and I will parkerize it, upgraded it with the few police parts and even upgrade some of the accessories if you want. You will then have a weapon that performs the same as the Remington 870 Police."
 
Oh, were we arguing?

Having those "Upgraded" parts may be more of a placebo than an actual advantage, IMO. However, if someone wants to pay their money for those parts, have at it. There are certainly worse things to do to a shotgun.

And someone will be along on this board and mayhap this thread waxing poetic about those worse things any minute.

On reflection, since most of the 870s here are old to quite old WMs, maybe I have a skewed view of what to expect from a new 870.
 
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