will the .308 and the 30-06 go long ranges

S

superking75

Inactive
I plan to use with ever to hunt deer close range (300 yards max), but I would like to target shoot at longer ranges (Up to 600-700 yards if i can find a place to.)

My main question is will these bullets be able to reach long ranges accurately.
second but not as important which is better for range the 308 or the 30-06.

thanks in advance
 
I regularly attend mid range matches and shoot either a 223 Space Gun or a 308 Win match rifle. The local mid range matches are held at 600 yards. Six hundred yards is a long way for any shooter, but both the 30-06 and 308 Win are supersonic at that range. There is a F Class category called tactical, which is the 223 and 308 Win round, I seldom shoot 1000 yards, but the 308Win is the most popular 1000 yard tactical round. The 308 Win is at its extreme range at 1000 yards, the typical round drops below subsonic. I have shot 168's at 1000 yards and the things tumble when they go subsonic. The 175's stay stable. I have shot 190 SMK's and they stay stable. Currently the 155 Palma and the 185 Berger are the most popular 308 Win bullet at 1000 yards, the 155 Palma guys have to push the thing above 3000 fps, and they do that with 30" barrels.

The 30-06 is probably a better 1000 yard round than the 308 Win as you can push the round 150 fps faster than a 308 Win. At 600 yards there is little between the two, the 308 Win has less recoil, both are more than acceptably accurate out to 600 yards.

Having pulled targets for new shooters, I can say 300 yards is a long way for people who don't practice each weekend. If you ever shoot on paper you will find that just hitting the target at these extreme ranges is an accomplishment. Rock busting gives one an erroneous idea of accuracy, as you really don't know where the bullet landed, but you get a reaction on the ground. Once you have to put the bullet on paper, you see that consistency is hard to achieve and hitting what you are aiming at is not a gimmie.
 
Look up Carlos Hathcock and Eric England.
Both used the 30-06 for most of their most noteworthy shots and all their range records.

For long range the heavier bullets have the edge over the light ones so the 06 having more powder capacity does a bit better at 800+ than the 308 ballistically, but that is not to say the 308 didn't and doesn't still do well.

The 6.5s are the driving force today but that does nothing to diminish the effectiveness of the 30s.
 
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With either round, matched to the right rifle & scope, if you miss at 600 yards, it's you. Of course, you have to learn to read the wind.
On a VERY good day, I have shot 8" groups at 600 yards. Just wish I could read the wind better. My groups tend to open horizontally. Elevation is usually right there. Damn wind.
 
Both are more then capable of shooting past what you are looking for.

I've been shooting a 308 in competition about 40 years, NRA High Power including 1000 yard matches.

Most has been with a M14/M1A while I shot for the AK NG Rifle team. Now my primary LRP rifle is a AMU built Model 70. I load my ammo where its usable in my Super Match M1A as well as my Model 70s. Meaning I shoot 168 & 175 SMKs to 2550 to 2600 FPS.

308s to be accurate have to be kept super sonic. Out of my 24 in Model 70 Barrel, that means its good to 1500 yards.

The 30-06 has the advantage of using heavier bullets and you can extend that range a bit. But you'll find most PRMs (Precision Rifle Matches) are between 400-1400 yards. So either will work.

Either of the two don't need magnum velocities to work. The weakest link in long range or other shooting is the shooter, not the rifle or the ammo.

Learn to shoot in wind, and other environment conditions, either the 308-'06 would suit your needs.

In choosing which one really is a coin toss. Any more I shoot more 30-06 because I mostly shoot USGI Vintage Rifles in the CMP Games.

If you don't reload, it would be hard to beat the prices of the CMP Greek surplus M2. (192 rounds in a spam can for $115 delivered to your door).

You'd be surprised ho accurate it is. Though I reload, I shoot it in the CMP games except for my M1903A4, I do load 168 A-max for it.

But if you are serious about long range shooting, you really should reload.

For hunting, with proper bullets both are capable of taking any game in North America.

Also both work well with cast bullets if you really want to cut down on the price of shooting.
 
At 600-700 yards the 308 is more than enough. The 30-06 will handle heavier bullets that perform better at much longer ranges. Either will work out to 1000 yards. The 30-06 will do it better at that range and even a bit beyond.

I have both, as well as others, but for 99% of what I need to do really like the 308 better. If nothing else it has just enough less recoil to be noticeable. As a hunting round no animal will ever notice the difference at 300 yards. For larger elk size game at 400-500 yards the heavier bullets from a 30-06 would offer a small advantage
 
Some of those old battle rifles often had sights that adjusted to 2,000 Meters or farther.
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Fixed that for you.

The sights were designed for area fire on formations of troops, still clinging to the ridiculous idea of set-piece battles from before the US Civil War. Two large formations of troops would line up in the open and shoot at each other. This is also why many of the WW1 era rifles were so long, so the muzzles of the second rank of riflemen would be clear of the guys in the first rank.

As to the original question, both are fine for that use. The .308 has an advantage in accuracy (see Bart B's many posts on this topic, when the Army switched to .308, they had to reduce the size of the scoring rings in LR matches, too many cleans). Honestly, I doubt most shooters can tell the difference.

The .30-06 can shoot heavier (~200g+), higher BC bullets better because of the larger case. The higher the BC, the better they are in the wind.
 
superking75 said:
I plan to use with ever to hunt deer close range (300 yards max), but I would like to target shoot at longer ranges (Up to 600-700 yards if i can find a place to.)



My main question is will these bullets be able to reach long ranges accurately.

second but not as important which is better for range the 308 or the 30-06.



thanks in advance
Click to expand...



I had a .308 built specifically for shooting long range and up to 700 yards with this rifle is just boring. I had it throated for 208g AMAXs and put a Bighorn long action on it. It will flat out shoot. Personally I would just stick with the .308, the gains from a 30-06 just aren't enough to make a difference to me.
d1b427b5c7b2266b92427aaf1cde15a6.jpg



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Either chambering is adequate for your purpose.

You will find a larger selection of not just factory rifles- but also aftermarket stocks and ammunition in the short action though; they're just more popular than the LA.
 
I did minor tweaking on a Weatherby MkV '06 to get it shooting small groups. On my 500-yard range at my house, I was able to hold MOA at worst; some sub-MOA. Mostly, though, it was my favorite deer rifle.
 
Giant pictures aside, the .308 has been used since it was new for 1,000 yard shooting. So was the .30-06 in its day.
However, NOT for hunting. No .30 calibre bullet has sufficient remaining energy much past 300 yards for ethical hunting shots. Paper/cardboard targets don't need much energy to penetrate.
Those old battle rifles had sights that went to 1200 YARDS for use in VOLLEY fire, not aimed rifle fire.
 
I plan to use with ever to hunt deer close range (300 yards max), but I would like to target shoot at longer ranges (Up to 600-700 yards if i can find a place to.)
Click to expand...

Either the 308 or 30-06 will be more than adequate to your stated purpose.

I use the 308 more because of the availability of match ammo.

I recently participated in a long range hunter course and consistently put lead on steel to 1000. I will say wind is a real factor after 600-700 and really becomes a problem past 800 with the 308 IMHO.

308s to be accurate have to be kept super sonic. Out of my 24 in Model 70 Barrel, that means its good to 1500 yards.
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Wow, I am going subsonic in my 308 with 23 inches of barrel and 175 match bullets long before that. I don't have any loads that remain supersonic past 1100.
 
T. O'Heir said:
Giant pictures aside, the .308 has been used since it was new for 1,000 yard shooting. So was the .30-06 in its day.

However, NOT for hunting. No .30 calibre bullet has sufficient remaining energy much past 300 yards for ethical hunting shots. Paper/cardboard targets don't need much energy to penetrate.

Those old battle rifles had sights that went to 1200 YARDS for use in VOLLEY fire, not aimed rifle fire.
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I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree more that "no .30 caliber bullet has sufficient remaining energy past 300 yards for ethical hunting shots" if you take a.look at the numbers and let them tell you the answer then it's a far different story. For example my .308 load still has 2000 lbs of energy at 300 yards and 1700 at 500 yards. More than sufficient for taking down animals with energy to spare.


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Charles S said:
Either the 308 or 30-06 will be more than adequate to your stated purpose.



I use the 308 more because of the availability of match ammo.



I recently participated in a long range hunter course and consistently put lead on steel to 1000. I will say wind is a real factor after 600-700 and really becomes a problem past 800 with the 308 IMHO.







Wow, I am going subsonic in my 308 with 23 inches of barrel and 175 match bullets long before that. I don't have any loads that remain supersonic past 1100.
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I am going transonic at around 1350-1400 (208 AMAX w 26" barrel) yards but as you said and has been my experience, much past 800 yards and wind really becomes an issue.


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Willikers, trench warfare involved just pounding the crap out of enemy locations. Sometimes that involved mass rifle fire. At 1k yards, nobody in the trenches during active fire could have set iron on a moving body and made contact with it. If a thousand men raised their sights to the measured distance and fired at movement it would suppress movement and kill a few. Gettysburg charges were bad. Later wars involved a whole lot less of that sort after warfare. Obviously, that doesn't mean that it didn't exist.
 
"However, NOT for hunting. No .30 calibre bullet has sufficient remaining energy much past 300 yards for ethical hunting shots."

Huh.......... That's interesting.

I have been hunting big game for 50 years now and have guided for 30 years on and off.
I have seen it done about 100 times, and have done it myself about 20 times. (mostly 30-06, next with a 308 and a few with a 300 H&H)

I wonder how those elk, deer and antelope all died so fast and most of them with only 1 shot each.

I have owned and used various 300 magnums, and my all time favorite is still the H&H, but most of my very long shots have been made with a 270 Winchester (which has less energy then my 300 magnums ) and all of those deer and antelope fell to one shot each. I did fire 2 shots at a deer once in Nevada and the 1st shot went low and hit in the dirt between it's legs. I held another 10-12 inches higher and fired a 2nd shot. That buck hit the ground without taking one step.

That one was measured by 2 friends with laser range finders, and both said it was 687 yards.

How did it die with so little "energy" being used to kill it?
Amazing huh..........

I prefer to kill my game at short range, not long range. More fun and more ethical.
But the idea that "no 30" has energy enough past 300 is a statement that is flying in the face of reality and 100 years of facts that prove otherwise.
 
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.308 and .30-06 are pretty much ballistic twins, fraternal not identical;)

800yds is the furthest measured distance I've shot any gun. Oddly the gun that shoots one moa at 100yds doesn't come close to that at 800. I guess I need another gun.
 
Got to agree with WyoSmith on this.

First, lets assume (and I don't buy into that theory) that its about energy.

It is said that those who do buy that theory, that 1800 ft lbs is needed for Elk.

I don't load hot, but using 180 Horn IB, my load has the remaining energy of 1800+ ft lbs at 400 yards out of my Model 70 Pre 64 in '06. That's with a modest 2700 fps MV.

Bullets matter more the energy. Take for example Berger VLD Hunting bullets. They are design to enter a few inches, and come apart destroying the central nervous system. In talking to the Berger engineers, to work properly their bullets need to have a remaining Vel of 1800 fps.

Bergers work as intended. To good for deer and antelope, because they leave a nasty exit wound. In the right spot ruins a lot of meat.

Lets look at energy. Any research will tell you millions of buffalo were killed by the 45-70. The army gave that ammo away so people would kill off the buffalo to force the Indians on reservations.

The common load, was 500 gr bullets pushed at 1300 fps with 70gr of BP.

That's only about 1876 ft lbs of energy at the muzzle. But the common practice was to shoot them at distance, where the bullet was subsonic do it didn't scare the herd. It goes sub sonic about 300 yards yet thousands have been killed at 1000+.

Don't get too hung up on bullet energy.
 
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