I just bought a near mint Iver Johnson Cadet Model 55 S-A in .38 S&W. As far as I can tell, it was made in the late 60's or early 70's. Does anyone know if this revolver will handle +P? The only semi-jacketed ammo I've found so far is the Magtech +P, and I don't much care for the all-lead rounds, which are readily available. I can't find any FMJ. Thanks!
Will my revolver safely handle +P??
- Thread starter HMC8404
- Start date
lee n. field
New member
.38 S&W =/= .38 Special.
I doubt there's a +P spec. for .38 S&W.
What I'm seeing online for that gun says it's .38 S&W, which is older, has slightly different dimensions, and (to address your question) lower pressure, than modern .38 Special.
See here for modern ammo options: http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby=1&itemsperpage=24&newcategorydimensionid=10050. Only the Remington is showing as in stock. I know Buffalo Bore also loads for it.
And, for your future reference: Reloading 38 Smith and Wesson on a Lee Pro1000 .
I doubt there's a +P spec. for .38 S&W.
What I'm seeing online for that gun says it's .38 S&W, which is older, has slightly different dimensions, and (to address your question) lower pressure, than modern .38 Special.
See here for modern ammo options: http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby=1&itemsperpage=24&newcategorydimensionid=10050. Only the Remington is showing as in stock. I know Buffalo Bore also loads for it.
And, for your future reference: Reloading 38 Smith and Wesson on a Lee Pro1000 .
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I agree you have misunderstood the caliber. It appears your gun is in 38 S&W which is shorter than the 38 S&W Special and is slightly larger in diameter. The two cartridges are not interchangeable. Below on the left is a 38 S&W I loaded with a lead Keith style bullet. On the right is a 38 Special with a JHP (Jacketed Hollow Point). You can see the difference in physical size and this explains why older guns with small frames and short cylinders were made in 38 S&W. The 38 Special requires a bigger platform.
Factory ammo for the 38 S&W is very limited and hard to find. Also pricey when you do find some. This is a caliber that demands reloading your own ammo if you want to do much shooting. If you wanted a revolver for shooting your gun isn't the best choice.
Factory ammo for the 38 S&W is very limited and hard to find. Also pricey when you do find some. This is a caliber that demands reloading your own ammo if you want to do much shooting. If you wanted a revolver for shooting your gun isn't the best choice.
carguychris
New member
As with the other posters, I assume that this referred to .38 Special rounds rather than .38 S&W, but I think a few comments are still appropriate.HMC8404 said:
FWIW almost all .38 S&W ammo uses lead bullets; however, the round is VERY low-pressure and low-velocity by modern standards, so it generally doesn't have serious problems with barrel lead buildup even with dead-soft non-alloyed lead bullets. Judicious use of a quality bore solvent followed by a few strokes with a bronze brush should take care of any buildup in short order.
In fact, the round is subject to a few words of caution regarding FMJ bullets. It is actually 0.361" caliber rather than 0.357" caliber like the far more commonplace .38 Special and .357 Magnum. However, late in the 20th century, a few gunmakers- notably Colt and S&W, I'm not sure about IJ- used .38/.357 barrels on .38 S&W firearms to simplify parts inventories. Firing oversize bullets is generally a Great Big No-No with most cartridges, but gunmakers could get away with it in .38 S&W because soft lead bullets at low pressure simply don't cause enough of a pressure spike to damage a high-quality modern solid-frame revolver like a S&W Model 33. However, FMJ bullets are much harder than lead, and using a 0.361"-caliber FMJ bullet in a 0.357"-caliber bore at low .38 S&W pressures may cause "squibs" or stuck bullets. The bottom line: If you choose one of the few available .38 S&W FMJ loads, I recommend frequently checking the bore for obstructions* and/or carefully counting the holes in the target during the first few dozen shots, to ensure that the bullets ARE in fact consistently exiting the bore. Either that, or using lead.
*Footnote: If this is done at a public range, I strongly recommend using some sort of stiff rope or flexible plastic or wood rod to check the bore from the forcing cone end, so the range officers don't have a fit and throw you out when they see you staring into the muzzle of your revolver.
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Sorry, folks, but the IJ Model 55 S-A was a solid frame revolver and was made in .38 Special (also .22 LR and .22 Magnum), not .38 S&W. While the gun would probably be strong enough for .38 Special +P, it was last made in 1979 and other makers do not recommend +P in their revolvers of that age. My advice would be to use only standard .38 Special or equivalent pressure reloads.
Jim
Jim
Kreyzhorse
New member
I would not shoot +P ammo in it.
lee n. field
New member
Pics would help.
Is there "Special" anywhere in the caliber designation on the gun itself? It's probably on the barrel.
Thanks everyone. This is the description and some photos. No "special" mentioned.
NEAR MINT CONDITION Iver Johnson model Cadet for sale chambered in 38 S&W barrel 2.5" The finish is TURNING A NICE PLUM COLOR. The bore and cylinder chambers are in excellent shape. The gun functions perfectly (may have never been fired)..has rare target grips
NEAR MINT CONDITION Iver Johnson model Cadet for sale chambered in 38 S&W barrel 2.5" The finish is TURNING A NICE PLUM COLOR. The bore and cylinder chambers are in excellent shape. The gun functions perfectly (may have never been fired)..has rare target grips
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I found that there is indeed a .38 S&W, which has a cartridge shorter than the .38 special. Most of the modern .38 S&W rounds seem to be +P though. They run about $26. for a box of fifty. When compared to other cartridges, the S&W round appears very close in length to the 9mm round.
Colorado Redneck
New member
That is a sweet looking piece!
I have read in this forum where you want to be careful showing pictures of guns serial numbers. Might consider that advice....just saying.
I have read in this forum where you want to be careful showing pictures of guns serial numbers. Might consider that advice....just saying.
carguychris
New member
FWIW the cases are so close in all exterior dimensions that, if you handload (I do), you have to be careful not to get them mixed up when you tumble and sort your brass.HMC8404 said:
+1; even Buffalo Bore, a company that offers so-called "+P" ammo for rounds that have no such specification (e.g. .32 ACP & .380 ACP), advertises their .38 S&W load as standard pressure. They do, however, advise against shooting this ammo in a top-break.Salmoneye said:
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=350
Carguy, you're correct. There are none available except in "special". My bust. Thanks for clearing that up. I did order one box of that high-powered .38 S&W from the site you linked. Since my gun is basically "as new" and not a top-break, they should be fine. I'll just use them for carry...no plinking though. WAY to expensive anyway.
FYI- I own a couple of revolvers in 38 S&W (a Victory Model, an Enfield and a 1955 Terrier) and playing with some 125 JHP loads I got them up to 975 FPS from the 2" Terrier. That's 75 FPS beyond the mainstream 38 Special +P* with a 125 JHP that seems to scare so many people. The Brits fought WW II with this cartridge. It's not a toy.
* I get 900 FPS from a 2" barrel using Remington 125 JHP +Ps.
* I get 900 FPS from a 2" barrel using Remington 125 JHP +Ps.
No, its not a toy. On the other hand, while the British did use it in WWII, as far as I can find from accounts of those who did carry and use it, it was not well liked, or well respected.
The English call the .38 S&W the .38/200 (or sometimes the .380/200) And originally loaded it with a 200gr RN bullet. Later this loading was replaced with a lighter (150gr-ish) FMJ bullet with a rather pointed nose.
I can easily see where a mid weight .38 caliber pointed FMJ at the low speeds the .38/200 is capable of would not engender confidence as a man stopper.
The .38 S&W was introduced about 1877 and the .38 S&W SPECIAL in 1902.
NOT THE SAME ROUND. S&W eventually dropped their name from the cartridge name and called the new round just the .38 Special, to reduce the confusion. IF your gun says .38 S&W (and nothing else) it is a .38 S&W. Period. IF it says .38 S&W Special (or Spl) or it says just .38 Spl it is NOT a .38 S&W.
The case body of the .38 S&W is several thousandths inch larger in diameter than the body of the .38 Special, and considerably shorter in length.
The performance that you can get out of a .38 S&W with lead bullets is not going to be significantly different than a jacketed round. Also, why the preference for FMJ (Full Metal Jacket)? I know that during WWII, .38 S&W revolvers were supplied with FMJ ammo but it was a "rules or war" requirement and had nothing to do with performance. In short, if it were mine and I was not a hand loader, I would buy the cheapest rounds available without regard for construction...it will not make much, if any difference down range.
158 gr L SW @767 ft/s (heavier bullets slower still), is not likely to expand.
carguychris
New member
And, I'll offer a couple of footnotes to 44 AMP's last post...
.38 Colt New Police (aka .38 Colt NP) = .38 S&W; likewise .38 Colt Special = .38 S&W Special. The only reason for the alternate names was a desire on Colt's part to avoid putting their arch-rival's name on their guns.
Other than slight variations in the bullets offered in the original loadings, there is no meaningful difference.
.38 Special will NOT chamber in a .38 S&W revolver with the original chamber dimensions; the cases will stick out of the cylinder by ~1/4" and prevent the cylinder from closing. (However, many WWII surplus .38 S&W revolvers had their chambers lengthened to accept .38 Special ammo to increase their appeal for subsequent U.S. commercial resale.)
.38 S&W will SOMETIMES chamber in a .38 Special or .357 Magnum firearm depending on the individual case and chamber dimensions. In some situations, certain brands of .38 S&W will fit, but not others. That said, given the generally greater cost of .38 S&W, there is no logical reason to do this unless the shooter is sitting on a large stockpile of .38 S&W ammo and is somehow unwilling or unable to resell it. (As previously noted in the post where I discuss bore diameters, .38 S&W uses a larger-caliber bullet, which will result in increased pressure on firing; however, this generally poses little risk in a quality modern revolver designed for these higher-pressure cartridges, provided that the shooter is using lead rather than FMJ bullets.)
.38 Colt New Police (aka .38 Colt NP) = .38 S&W; likewise .38 Colt Special = .38 S&W Special. The only reason for the alternate names was a desire on Colt's part to avoid putting their arch-rival's name on their guns.
Other than slight variations in the bullets offered in the original loadings, there is no meaningful difference..38 Special will NOT chamber in a .38 S&W revolver with the original chamber dimensions; the cases will stick out of the cylinder by ~1/4" and prevent the cylinder from closing. (However, many WWII surplus .38 S&W revolvers had their chambers lengthened to accept .38 Special ammo to increase their appeal for subsequent U.S. commercial resale.)
.38 S&W will SOMETIMES chamber in a .38 Special or .357 Magnum firearm depending on the individual case and chamber dimensions. In some situations, certain brands of .38 S&W will fit, but not others. That said, given the generally greater cost of .38 S&W, there is no logical reason to do this unless the shooter is sitting on a large stockpile of .38 S&W ammo and is somehow unwilling or unable to resell it. (As previously noted in the post where I discuss bore diameters, .38 S&W uses a larger-caliber bullet, which will result in increased pressure on firing; however, this generally poses little risk in a quality modern revolver designed for these higher-pressure cartridges, provided that the shooter is using lead rather than FMJ bullets.)
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