Will my guns be seized?

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Steve Smith

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Guys and girls, I'm really having a dillema. I have an waaay more guns that have been bought through an FFL recently, then I do from private trade. In fact, I only have 3 .22 rifles, a Walther P-38 and a shotgun that aren't quasi-registered. This is really getting to me. What's everyone's thoughts on the background check system. Do I need to sell a few of the registered ones and buy duplicates from private sellers? (I don't have the money to just buy that many more at one time). For example, I'd like to spruce up my favorite 1911 with some custom work, but if it'll be part of the great gun grab, maybe I want to buy one just like it from a private seller and spruce that one up instead. On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd be around to do anything after that happened if you get my point. Thoughts?
 
Well we should ALL be worried about the future of our guns. That's the obvious part. The other part is that when they do come to seize our guns, we will be ready. Yes I catch your drift. We HAVE to be ready. Because it will happen. History repeats itself. Anyhow, No I wouldn't go through all the trouble of getting duplicates and all. Do what you want with what you've got and if they do decide to come for them, you sound like you won't be too worried about losing them because you won't know it anyways. I believe the saying goes something like "They can take my guns when they pry them from my cold dead hands!"

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Until the antis put a sign in their front yard that says they don't own guns, they are riding on the shirt-tail of the safety that we provide by owning them.
 
I know lots of people who've searched the newspapers for the gun they want for just the reason you specified.

But we need to take into consideration the number of 4473s that are out there. Only the ones from dealers that have gone out of business are in the hands of the BATF. The rest are kept at the dealer's place of business. While there have been some attempts to get 4473s in "forward trace" operations, the shear number of dealers and 4473s that are out there, scattered all over the country since 1968 would make it a long drawn out task to seize and computerize all of these forms to make the 4473s a viable registration list.

Why do you think they are pushing registration so hard now? It's because the task of tracking down the current owner of a given firearm would be nearly impossible even if they had all the 4473s.

Think about it; a firearm goes from the manufacturer to a distributor, to the first FFL, then John Doe buys it, and then legally sells to an individual who maybe trades it to someone else, then he trades to an FFL where it re-enters the system. The FFL sells to another individual and the process starts again. Here in Illinois where we already have gun owner licenses (FOID cards) an individual has to keep records of who he sold a gun to and the buyers FOID card number for 10 years. Not forever, but for 10 years.

It states: Any person within this State who transfers or causes to be transferred any firearm shall keep a record of such transfer for a period of 10 years from the date of transfer. Such record shall contain the date of the transfer, the description, serial number or other information identifying the firearm if no serial number is available; and if the transfer was completed within this State, the transferee's Firearm Owners Identification Card Number. On demand of a peace officer such transferor shall provide for inspection such record of transfer.

This is what they are wanting nationwide.

Jeff
 
SELL THEM - SELL THEM - SELL THEM !!!!

Forget about bureacratic incompetence. That's a crap shoot. If you've bought most of your guns through a FFL dealer over the past 10-15 years, you are screwed. You're in the system, guaranteed.

BTW, selling them shouldn't change your strategy of what to do if you ever get the "knock on the door". Chances are if it comes to that, they won't care whether you said you've sold the weapons or not, they will search your premises anyway.

But your gun buying strategy should indeed change immediately. Buy only from private parties, and keep the ones "registered" at your mother's house or with someone who isn't in the system.

Move soldier!
 
I wouldn't be selling anything, if I were you. We bought these in good faith in a legal fashion. If it comes to the seizure part of it, it's too damn late. (storage)

And there's no way in hell I'm placing any member of my family in peril because some scum sucking Commie fag in Washington want's me to just lay back and enjoy it.(storage)

This fight ain't over yet!!! I see where this might be heading, but it ain't over.(storage)
Did anyone hear Rozee sing? It ain''t over till the fat lady (I use the term loosely) sings.(storage)

Best Regards,
Don



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The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subjected people to carry arms; history shows that all conquerers who have allowed their subjected people to carry arms have prepared their own fall.
Adolf Hitler
 
Frontsight, don't worry about it.

If filling in the 4473s gets them onto you, then it will regardless of what you do with them.

Remember all those receivers that broke when you fired with crappy reloads? Or those you sold at a gun show? If they don't believe that and kick in your door, you'll be in just as much trouble.

I've filled out a stack of 4473s; but the fact that others can buy unpapered means that the yellow forms are not true registration.

As for the above excuses, you've filled out yellow forms, they'll get you for that or they won't. If you do not have anything on your premises, they have to believe you that you sold/threw away your collection. There are too many people who've sold stuff privately/thrown it away for them to lock EVERYONE up.

Battler.
 
When they come for your guns, whether your name is on a 4473 or not, we are beyond the stuff hitting the fan and best get busy precluding the dawn of such an event. Aside from an FFL dealer going out of business and turning in his Form 4473 files, exactly how are our purchases already on record Mr. PR? In our Commonwealth, the first with an instant background check, no serial number is provided to the State/NICS. Is it simply a question of the State knowing that an individual purchased a nonspecific arm or what? Do you envision the eventual collection of all 4473s held by private FFL dealers?
 
Even insofar as my own optimism, the yellow forms being collected IS a given.

FFLs have to keep the forms for 20 years - wont' be 20 years before there's a political change (for the worse).

How many FFLs will be in business in 20 years?

And they WILL round them up anyway, look at what Klint did with harassing "10 crime gun" dealers. . . . they could easily scan them all in like that if they wanted to.

Interestingly, in 1968 collecting the forms would have been a logistical nightmare. Now, the computer on your desk could make short work of yellow forms.

If nothing else, they will scan them in on the excuse that (and it's true) they have trouble with traces because after a sale they can't find a gun even if it got another yellow form.


Battler.
 
Gosh, Frontsight!, I'd hate to have your worries. I'm not worried about that at all because if it came to that point (confiscation) I'd be dead or incarcerated. So who gives a sh** what becomes of my guns at that point.

Trust me on this one kids, I wouldn't last five minutes, but I wouldn't have to live on in some dull Utopia of enforced-happiness safety nazis and remember how things were.

If, despite all our struggles, it gets to that point, I'd turn my gun on myself rather than drift into my twilight years wishing I was still a freeperson, rather than chattel of the state.

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"..but never ever Fear. Fear is for the enemy. Fear and Bullets."
10mm: It's not the size of the Dawg in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog!
 
If it really does come to the great gun grab (GGG for the soccer moms out there), are you going to give up any of the guns you own?

Don't get me wrong, i don't want to be on the business end of an MP-5 like some cuban boy, but really, they will have to do quite a bit to get to my guns.

I really don't know what you think you might gain by trying to beat the registration game. When they come to check your arsenal, they are going to search your house exhaustively anyway. They are not going to ask you nicely to show them your guns. They are not going to take your word for it.

Selling guns is against my religion you see. Even FFL purchased ones.

~USP
 
if an when the sweeps begin, what will you do? if you have firearms registered to you that you can not produce and most of us do, then we face imprisonment or worse. so what? its going to be a big prison camp and everybody worth being around will be in there too. break out he cards. the rest of the good guys will be in the hills hopefully plotting the overthrow of the socialist liberal government and coming to break us out. if not i guess we will live off the government like all the immigrants and welfare leaches do now. when they get thru feeding and reprograming me and kick me out i will move to the country, dig up some of my stash and go about my business. that is of course, unless they kill me. if they do all my troubles are over anyway.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22-36
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
The man that can keep his head and aims carefully when the situation has gone bad and lead is flying usually wins the fight.
 
Talking about "them" doing house-to-house searches sounds scary. But I wonder how many of "them" will be scared? "They" should be.

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Hoka-hey
 
Based upon what has happened in other countries, and extrapolating, my guesses are:

1. They'll continue to pick on small groups of firearms at a time ('assault weapons', 'Saturday Night Specials', etc.);
2. They'll tell you / us we have until a certain date to turn them in. After that it will be a misdemeanor or felony, with jail term. See www.sksbuyback.org .
3. No door-to-door searches (at least at first), except for obvious cases, RKBA activists, etc.
4. Any reason to come to your home will be used as a pretext to search for firearms. Most LEO's will go along with this, IMHO.
5. In the background, they'll computerize the 4473's they don't already know about (via NICS, visits by BATF to FFL's, etc.). I don't see where this is all that tough. And, I'll bet some FFL's record serial numbers on these, even if they don't have to by law.
6. They'll begin having LEO's record and report serial numbers for firearms they find on motorists, etc.
7. Public relations campaigns will convert the public's perception of honest gunowners until we're seen as worse than drug dealers.
8. By the time they're done, most of the people with 'prohibited' firearms will have buried them in the ground, off of their own property.

And, so on. I sincerely believe that the logistical roadblocks to such an effort can be overcome by money, time, PR and ultimately, the fact that honest gunowners are inherently law-abiding.

I too don't understsnd the logic of getting rid of FFL-purchased firearms. If you ever bought a firearm on a 4473, I figure they'll just search your property in due course. Won't matter if you disposed of some or all of your firearms, IMHO. It wouldn't really surprise me if they went so far as to cross check records for membership in gun groups, CCW permits, maybe even gun-related books from folks like Amazon.Com, etc.

Paranoid? Well, I wouldn't bet my life on all of the above, but I don't find any of it beyond the pale. I think it is all feasible, in the long run. We're doing so well on fascism, I think technology could be artfully and efficiently used by these people to put the final nails in the RKBA coffin.

Regards from AZ
 
Is Battler right? Is the maintenance of 4473 forms limited to 20 years?

I hope that's true..., that'd give me 2 or 3 more firearms that've scrolled off the forms. But most of my older guns have been traded and such, so most of what I've got are "late models". I do a LOT of tradins, so I've got no way to "prove" where a lot of my firearms are.

Doesn't matter, I guess..., I'm not likely to "hold still" for confiscation, anyway.....

On another topic..., the information on the 4473 forms is hand written. No way to scan it and run it through a OCR to transcribe it. The could scan the forms, but no way to organize them by name.

Of course, they could just give the forms to the IRS. They have experience in handling hand-written documents.
 
Don't sell. After all, can't have a "party" without "party favors."

Here's a thought. They'll have to use the military to carry out gun confiscation. No cop I know would do it (not because they believe in the RKBA but only because we know where the local boys live)>

As for those nasty 4473s, anyone remember a drink named after a famous Russian general?

Finally, as for when the GGG begins, I got two words for you:

Let's rock!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buzz_knox:
Here's a thought. They'll have to use the military to carry out gun confiscation. No cop I know would do it (not because they believe in the RKBA but only because we know where the local boys live)[/quote]

Hmmm... do you know who the driver was of the get-away car during the Great Cuban-Boy Grab? No you don't. And guess what, the GGG will be carried out in simmilar fashion. (Incidentally, don't you think that national reciprocity CCW for LEO's and judges only is the first step toward a GGG?)

I know pleanty of cops that would be all in favor of the GGG (i know a few that would take a personal interest in it if you catch my drift.) "Sorry sir, just doing my job. This is only for officer safety don't you know."

I would be more surprised if the military went along with the GGG as nearly all of the military boys and gals i know are so pro-gun they'd be standing with us, and probably toward the front.

I really don't even think that burying our guns would be much help. I mean really, ask yourself, if it got to the point that you were burrying your guns to protect them from confiscation, what would you be doing?

I'm not going to burry my guns, they are going to stay close by, right where i always keep them. I don't expect that it will get that far; i plan on making sure that it doesn't.

~USP

[This message has been edited by USP45 (edited May 16, 2000).]
 
I agree with USP45. Anyone who thinks that he/she is going to stand at the door at tell the nice Gestapo/Spetnaz. "Gee, mein herr, I lost those when my canoe turned over on the lake, and the others, well, uh, I sold some and a few were stolen, hahahahaha."

Uh huh. Here's what will really happen, IN THAT EVENT. The head GestapoSpetnaz will look at you like you fell out of a tree, then grab your little seven year old daughter, screw a .40 cal in her ear and say, "Sir, where did you say those guns are??"

You say, "Uh, well, uh, you see mein herr, the canoe turned over and..."

BOOM!! Your daughter's brains and blood will scatter over the living room wall. Then he will grab your four year old son and screw that .40 cal in his ear and ask you again, "Now, sir, where did you say you lost those guns?"

You say, "Ohh my God, mein herr, I, I don't recall...."

BOOM!!

Your son's brains and blood splatter the carpet. He then grabs your wife, shoves the .40 cal into her mouth, knocking out her front teeth. "One last time, sir, where are your guns??"

You'll say, "Yes sir, yes sir! please don't shoot, mein herr! They're buried in the field by that old oak tree."

The GestapoSpetnaz leader will smile and say, "Thank you, sir, you've been most cooperative. It will go well in our report on you."

That, folks, is exactly what will happen. These communistnazis are not going to be playing games with you (and me) any more than King Klinton, Reischfuhrer/SS Reno, and their mercenary killers played games with the men, women, and children of the Branch Davidian Church at Waco.

I ain't burying anything! J.B.
 
I think having something like a Ruger Mark V
as a "gimme" gun could work. Saw all this coming after the election of Al Gore, sold them, here are some receipts, this Ruger is just so fun to shoot I couldn't part with it.
My NRA membership? I'm still hopeful that we can get these laws repealed.

If they're going to shoot me after all that, they're going to shoot me anyway for what I believe.

Dick
 
Actually, I see them continuing to nibble away, one bite at a time like they have been, with the bites getting bigger each time:

1. Mandatory registration and licensing of all guns and owners a la Feinstein.

2. No searches, at least not for most people, but to be caught while hunting, or shooting at the range, in matches, etc. without a licensed, registered firearm will command a hefty fine for the first couple offenses. A lot of people will pay it, cause a lot of hunters just want to be left alone to hunt, and as long as they can do that, they'll be pissed but stay in their places.

3. Any gun club, hunting club, or range that permits unlicensed arms on the premises could be shut down under law. Many of the very public ones will be enforcing such rules in order to stay in business, so the government won't have to enforce it, at first. They'll just show up for surprise "compliance inspections."

4. Probably by this point, you'll have to register your "hunting guns" when you apply for your hunting license every year, so that when the "game wardens" check you, they can verify that the firearm you're hunting with is the one listed on your license. Wouldn't surprise me if they make you buy a extra licenses if you want to hunt with more than one gun.

5. At this point, things get even worse...

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When they deploy for a predawn vertical insertion with the clear intent of initiating a brutality event against multiple soft targets, you'd better be prepared to begin serious violence processing else you'll wind up in a pile of decommissioned aggressor quantum.
 
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