Will competition get you killed? Police take

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Thats all well and good Frank, 3 of the 5 cases you linked all did something that provoked the attacks in one way or another and I would have issues with them too. 1 case was an X boyfriend attacking, a relationship exists, so does initial suspicion requiring further investigation. Fish was railroaded, no doubt.

Yelling at drunks, arguing and fighting with neighbors, playing bumper cars on the road. That goes back to the 3 S's.

There are a great many self defense shootings that no charges are ever filed, one such example is the recent case in Florida and the robbery attempt.
 
Nanuk said:
...There are a great many self defense shootings that no charges are ever filed, one such example is the recent case in Florida and the robbery attempt.
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Yes there are. But there are also cases that turn out to be legitimate self defense that are charges and prosecuted. And some of those are in gun friendly States with Stand Your Ground laws. And you have no way to predict what your incident, if it ever happens, will be.

So the glib business of "a good shoot is a good shoot" or "in this State it's not a problem" or "it's all the work of a conniving prosecutor" is drivel. Our society takes a dim view of one person intentionally hurting or killing another. The law recognizes that doing so may, under certain circumstances, be justified. But unless and until your act of extreme violence against another human being is considered legally justified, you're going to be in for a nasty time of it.

How well prepared are you for the legal aftermath of your use of lethal force to save your life or the life of a loved one?
 
Nanuk said:
http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...fense-Insurance-Protects-Retired-LEOs-Assets/
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Yes, if you have that sort of insurance protection you have reason to feel fairly well prepared for the legal aftermath of a self defense incident. But the majority of the members of this board don't have access to anything like that insurance coverage.

Also, I note that the insurance provides up to $50,000 towards the cost of defense of a criminal charge. However, depending on the complexity of the case, the legal bill for the defense, through a jury trial, of a serious criminal charge can exceed $100,000.
 
This is something that anyone can test on their own. Compare how good they are before they start competing and after. Use any benchmark you like as long as it is measurable.

If someone has never shot in competition before the change should be evident.

Oh and as I said before if you want to simulate stress stand in a bucket while you shoot and have a friend toss snakes in it.:D
 
With regard to competition creating potential legal problems:

According to Massad Ayoob and Marty Hayes, they would much rather defend a trained person than an untrained person. It's easier to justify and explain to the jury why the defendant reasonably believed what he did, if they can show that the defendant is aware of such things as:

1) body language and other warning signs of imminent attack;

2) advantages of hollow points, that include less likelihood of ricochets and overpenetration (protecting society) and greater likelihood of stopping the assailant with fewer rounds (protecting the assailant; we had MDs and RNs in the class confirm that it's easier to save a gunshot victim if he has fewer, rather than more, holes in him);

3) disparity of force;

4) knowledge of what the local police carry, and why (another example they gave was a former marine who had a 1911 and 2 spare mags; when asked why, the answer was that he had always been trained to carry that - the jury found that answer reasonable).

etc.

Also, they felt that competition could be a positive factor in a trial: the defendant is honing his skills so that, in a crisis, he is less likely to cause harm to bystanders.

So, could training and/or competition be used against you? Yes. But it could also be used for you.

If you ever get involved in an SD event, find a competent SD attorney (one who has experience in defending people who really aren't guilty, as opposed to one who normally deals with society's dregs - the legal tactics used are not the same), and pay the money for good expert witnesses.
 
Some prosecutors would have a field day terrifying a jury with stories about how you like to "dress up an play Rambo" in your weekend IPSC hobby.
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That wouldn't work for me. I've just started a weeknight competition. unless Rambo is running around in business attire with tennis shoes instead of dress shoes, I think I'm ok. :D
 
Competition and training have been brought up in trial. However, IIRC, the defendants have had remarkably crappy lawyers. Marty and Mas make the point that training, esp. experiences that teach restraint, can be used to your benefit by an attorney. They can construct a positive theme for you.

I will opine (worth what you paid for it), that training that has too much blood lust chortling (Always cheat, always win; Be prepared to kill everyone in the place), might be presented as a negative. We have seen that.

Responsible training would be positive. All my experiences emphasize rational analysis and restraint. Avoidance, escape, etc.
 
"I remember reading somewhere (perhaps a link somewhere on this forum ?) about a project where experienced combat folks from Iraq and Afghanistan were asked to try out a 3-gun course. I seem to remember these were SEALs or USA Special Forces, or similar high speed low drag folks. Does anyone besides me remember this?

As I recall, these professionals did not run through the course in the same way that most competitors do... They were a bit slower, fired fewer shots, and were A LOT MORE CAREFUL about concealment and cover.

I wish I could find the link... Anyone remember this"


As far as how successfully the experienced combat folks completed the course of fire, it would depend on what they were trying to do. It should be painfully obvious that if they were going to run through the stage as if it were a real combat situation to demonstrate how they would do that over in Iraq, they wouldn't shoot it the same way as 3 gun shooters in a competition. Would anyone actually be surprised by that?

On the other hand, if they were asked to run through the stage, after explaining the scoring system, and for them to try and score their best on the stage, I would imagine that they could do pretty well treating the stage as a mere competition and not a combat situation. Mark.
 
Back to the original question of LEOs and competition, I'm curious to know how many folks in this thread are LEOs and how many are competitors, and, of course, how many are both, to get a better impression of their perspective.

I am a LEO and I try to shoot at least one IDPA or action pistol match a month. I alternate shooting with my duty gun and gear and with my off duty rig. Practice through competition has helped me to be a better shooter and it shows during training and qualifying. My speed, accuracy, and gun handling (draws, reloads, clearing jams, dealing with failures, etc), have all improved. I am consistently faster, more accurate, safer on the range, and have fewer issues with my guns and gear than most, if not all, the other LEOs I qualify and train with. Many of those guys are good shots and know their equipment but few practice much, if at all, and none compete. IMO, that quality trigger time really makes a difference. Competition has also brought to light equipment issues that I didn't know existed that I was then able to fix, better to find any shortcomings (yours and your gear's) on the range than the street.
 
I am a retired LEO, I shot some sort of competition for most of my career. I have been shooting IDPA for 9 years now.

I used my duty gun/ammo in every match before I retired. We always run 2 matches, so the 2nd match I would mix it up a bit. I think competition improves your skills both gun handling and shooting. In does two other things for me, shooting in all different positions at various targets at various ranges, some moving, some small, some reactive targets that do or do not react and trying out new gear or carry options give me a sense of confidence.

Face it, the gun is never to first option. I think too many people have the misconception that if you are a competitive shooter you are more likely to use lethal force.
 
This topic comes up on this and other forums all the time.

In this case, the original poster wanted to stimulate a good discussion.

In some other cases, it seems that the OP's purpose may have been to find a way to justify not shooting competitively.

Hey, if you don't want to shoot in matches, then don't. Just be intellectually honest and say that you aren't interested or that you think it may not help you develop the skills you believe that you need. Which are both valid opinions depending upon your circumstances.

I think competition can clearly improve your gun handling and shooting skills.

I shoot both IPSC and IDPA fairly regularly and shoot PPC about once a year. IMHO, IPSC and IDPA are best considered skill building exercises that have some training value and can be very entertaining. Any competitive event, of necessity, will not be able to duplicate the dynamics of a real gunfight.

But, depending upon the course of fire, there CAN be training value in the process, if you are shooting the IDPA classifier or an IPSC classifier that measures basic marksmanship and gun-handling skills. Some IPSC assault courses totally lack any connection to reality and are best avoided IMHO, but classifiers and most IDPA courses of fire are at least semi-realistic in the marksmanship skills that are required in that course of fire.

In such competitions I've most often always used whatever my duty gun was at the time. (Currently it's a Sig 226R-DAK in .40 cal.)

I'm more interested in getting trigger time than in shooting the matches as a competitive activity. Of course, I'm not particularly fast, so if I WAS attempting to become the next USPSA champion, I'd be way out of luck . . .

In general I prefer the course design philosophy of IDPA. However, I've been shooting IPSC on a sporadic basis at the local level since 1978, and I've become more involved recently since some of the local clubs have been regenerated.

I particularly like the USPSA Classifiers and the IDPA Classifier match as methods to test basic skills. Also, several of the local IPSC clubs have LOTS more steel and movers and bobbers and so forth than what we have available at the police range, so the courses of fire they use on match days are much more innovative that what we can do during in-service training at the PD.

There was a similar thread on one of the other forums a few years ago, and one poster had an interesting thought that kind of mirrors my philosophy -- he takes IDPA more seriously and competes in IPSC as a sort of structured practice session.

You'll get out of it what you put into it. Be safe and have fun with it. At the very least, shooting in matches can show you which skills to need to practice more . . .

Many clubs are now on the web and some post the course descriptions for upcoming stages on their web site. If clubs near you do this, you'll find this to be very useful. I don't look at the courses of fire in advance to figure out a "game plan" on how to shoot the course, but rather to get an idea of what skills I might need to practice before the match. (practice strong hand only and weak hand only shooting to start with, and engaging multiple targets from behind high & low cover)

Also, some clubs are more practically oriented, and some have more members who shoot purely as a competitive activity (usually the IPSC shooters, BUT NOT ALWAYS) and by looking at posted courses of fire you can determine which orientation the club has and if the matches they run have any value for what you're trying to accomplish. (Sometimes I'll look at the posted courses for one of the local clubs and if three out of five stages are "run & gun" assault courses [which don't fit in with my philosophy very well] I'll just go do something else that day . . . )

Competitive shooting certainly has the potential to help you increase your marksmanship and gun handling skills, depending upon what kind of matches you're shooting. It can also certainly train you into bad habits, just as focusing too much on speed, jerking the trigger, and forgetting to look at the sights . . . you have to be mindful in everything you do if you want to maximize the skill building potential of that particular activity.

(I shot the IDPA classifier last week with my new Glock 35 and didn't finish as well as I usually do -- I had lots of hits high left on Stage II for some reason. Stage II has stages where you shoot while advancing, shoot while retreating, and shoot strong hand only. I'm right handed, and hooked a lot of shots left for some reason. So now I know some particular skills that I need to practice on. That's one of the reasons I shoot matches -- to find out what I DON'T do well)
 
I have already made one or two comments here but I'm not going back and re-read the whole thread, so I may have missed something.

It seems to me there are other ways to see competitive pistol shooting. It may make a difference in whether or not you are a law officer. Civilians operate under slightly different rules and usually under different conditions. For instance, a civilian would not be approaching a car to check driver's licenses. Likewise, it is unlikely a civilian would be carrying his firearm the same way as a policeman. Chances are, neither would carry them the same way in competition.

Using the service issue pistol in competition has been mentioned more than once. There are good reasons for that, I suppose, but it introduces a dilemma of sorts, more so for a civilian, who does not have a service issue pistol. A civilian is free to have any sort of pistol and judging from what I read here, many are small pocket pistols. I somehow doubt anyone would attempt more than once to compete in some events with their PPK or their Model 36, if in fact either of those pistols are still being carried by anyone. So they carry something better suited for the competition.

It isn't then so much a question of whether or not competiting creates some bad habits or not so much as whether or not the value of the experience gained in gunhandling with a "normal" pistol will carry over to the real-world everyday carry pistol. Undoubtedly some things will, but other things might not even be applicable. Let's say you compete with a .45 automatic but you tend to carry a .357 revolver because you spend a lot of time in the woods. Would competition help? Hard to say. Would it hurt? Probably not.
 
But in your examples, BT, a person who carried a .357 revolver and who wanted to hone skills for SD purposes would compete with the .357, not the .45 auto.

One of the uses to which I've put IDPA is in identifying which of my guns actually work best for me with regard to speed and accuracy when moving and/or under time stress.

I do this to determine which guns work best for me, for carry.

I also do this to determine which sight systems I am fastest with.

Note: my fast isn't blazing fast; I don't like trading accuracy for time, so I'm typically midpack speed, but front-pack accuracy.
 
That's correct; he should. But there are some howevers.

I have only watched competitions. But it's obvious that some competitions will greatly favor certain model guns over others. That's true in car racing, too. In some cases, you are even required to use certain calibers or at least loads with a certain power factor. Without doing any research whatsoever, are there "stock" categories for handgun competitions that require that competitors use mostly unmodified handguns instead of "race guns" that typically dominate the matches? That would be one place to go in.

I doubt there are competitions for pocket pistols but it seems like there should be. Whether or not there would be enough interest for the trouble is another story. Managing competition and courses and so on is not a simple job.

Another thing is that, oddly enough, highly modified handguns sometimes become unreliable. I've seen stoppages in competitions, though you might say that's a good thing; it helps you to learn to clear a stoppage under stress. It might also make you think automatics are unreliable, the same pistols that have been around for a hundred years now. It's funny how these things work out sometimes.

I'm going out on a limb here and ask if there is more creative competition in black powder/cowboy shooting games. I don't think cowboy shooting has degenerated--I mean evolved--into using lots of highly modified guns, although I know sometimes more than one gun is required. But it sounds like they do a lot to keep it interesting. Maybe not realistic but it's still a competition.
 
In most of the competitions there are different categories for different guns. A revolver shooter will generally be competing against other revolver shooters. USPSA/IPSC is where you will see the race type guns with compensators, extended mags and in Open, dot sights,etc. But they also have categories (production) for Glocks and other listed guns. Production category will have more limits on what modifications you can do to the gun and what other gear you can use. IDPA doesn't have the dot sight race guns, being more self defense oriented. But, all of the categories allow you to have trigger work and other modifications done. Some categories limit allow only limited modifications while others allow a lot more.

Even the cowboy guns have modifications. The 73 Winchester copies are routinely modified to have a much shorter lever throw then stock. A lot of cowboy shooters have trigger jobs, action and reliability work done on their cowboy guns.

Although you are competing directly against other shooters in your category, you can usually see how you placed against everyone else too. A good revolver shooter can beat a lot of shooters that are shooting semi autos.

Mark
 
One of the uses to which I've put IDPA is in identifying which of my guns actually work best for me with regard to speed and accuracy when moving and/or under time stress.

I do this to determine which guns work best for me, for carry.

I also do this to determine which sight systems I am fastest with.

Note: my fast isn't blazing fast; I don't like trading accuracy for time, so I'm typically midpack speed, but front-pack accuracy.
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DITTO

I have only watched competitions.
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I suggest you participate. Don't take this the wrong way, however, I do not see how you can honestly debate the issue with no experience with the issue.

Another thing is that, oddly enough, highly modified handguns sometimes become unreliable.
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There are many things that cause malfunctions in semi auto's, bad grip, bad ammo, bad magazine, resting the slide on a barricade, I have actually seen one shooter that made a part for his gun from cardboard after he lost the original, and figured that is what caused his problems.

Cowboy guns are extensively modified. You should see the gamesmen in cowboy shooting yowser...... Which is why I quit that "sport".

A good revolver shooter can beat a lot of shooters that are shooting semi autos.
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I am a good revolver shooter, shooting the same course of fire my score/time is twice as good with my Glock 40, with the 9mm barrel it is even faster.
 
The whole point is to become a better shooter. That unrealistic course of fire is neutral- everyone had to negotiate it. If your only interest is becoming a better shooter with your S&W Model 64 carry gun, then don't worry what the guys with the space guns are up to- you can't keep up with them. Just focus on shooting as well as you possibly can.

Don't be intimidated by the gear you see. Those experienced shooters in A and master class will become your best resource as you get further into the game. They remember their first match, and how hard their heart was beating. You want to get squadded with those guys.

Don't get locked into the "Martial artist, stock gun, carry gear, never practice and I still can't win" mode. I saw this a lot. These guys never showed up on our practice nights, or shot the revolver neutral steel league, , or traveled to other leagues to compete, but were pretty vocal about never winning. I found it pretty interesting that our martial artists split off from our league, and then just stopped showing up for their own practical matches. The key here is to improve- not compete with the Master Class race-gunners.

Get out there. Join a league. If you're uncomfortable, don't suit up your first time, and have the RO's squad you and follow a squad through it's stages without the worry of shooting your first time. Learn to score and follow the RO's instructions. Then come back next time and compete, and focus on accuracy, not speed. Speed will take care of itself.

A year of shooting USPSA will make you a much, much better shooter.
 
I agree. The games we play will make you a better shooter for sure ( actually if no one is shooting back it's all games). You'll also know when your gun's about to go empty without even thinking about it and will find yourself doing mag changes without a thought or looking down to see where they are. It'll build familiarity with your prefered equipment. USPSA is freestyle usually and you can move and use cover if you wish as you move. You will develop safe gun handling skills at any speed too.
 
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