Why you don't start anyone on large calibers
- Thread starter 2wheelwander
- Start date
Ok, lets change it a little, do you put that first time driver in a half ton pickup and then send them out onto the freeway, or downtown in major city traffic?
The point here is that there are levels of complexity, that the beginner needs time to learn and learn to be able to deal with.
Too much, too soon is bad. And, it can have lasting detrimental effects.
A flinch problem, once developed takes a lot to overcome.
Doesn't matter a lot how big someone is, if they feel the rifle is going to hurt them, they won't shoot well.
We don't get to decide what they feel. Sure, suck it up, be a man, shoot the 06, a 12 year old can do it..... doesn't help much when the shooter has a flinch problem...
Even if their ego doesn't get in the way....
allenomics
New member
It's the same reason why you don't teach a person how to swim by having them jump into the deep end of a pool. Crawl, walk, run. Start with what people believe they can handle. Fear and shock is a deterrent to trying and success. Practice without fear instills confidence and passion.
It occurs to me that the "standard" length of pull is probably too short for someone 6'4".
A short stock is easier to use than one that is too long, but both too short and too long can amplify the felt recoil, as can a "hard" buttplate and the "wrong" amount of drop in the stock.
All these things, as well a muzzle blast have an effect on beginners that experienced shooter often find difficult to remember.
A short stock is easier to use than one that is too long, but both too short and too long can amplify the felt recoil, as can a "hard" buttplate and the "wrong" amount of drop in the stock.
All these things, as well a muzzle blast have an effect on beginners that experienced shooter often find difficult to remember.
2wheelwander
New member
I bought him a slip on recoil pad to lessen felt recoil and give him a bit more reach on the stock.
Very valid point that the gun doesn't fit him well. Before he bought a gun he was more interested in calibers than a quality rifle. He just expected any '06/22-250/.243 would have inherent accuracy despite a platforms short comings. I finally settled on the fact that whatever he was going to buy would be more accurate than him in the first place, which is painfully obvious.
Talked to him yesterday and told him to put his rifle away, we would be shooting my .17 and .22's for a while. Ego is definitely at work here. He wants to raise the scope with rings so its more comfortable for him, despite me telling him it will have an effect on accuracy. The bolt clears the scope just fine, but its not enough for his liking. Instead of working around what works, he wants to rifle to work around him in that regard.
Bench shooting he insisted on cradling the gun itself instead of letting the bags do the work. There was initial fear the gun would rise up off the bag and knock him in the head. Though his first shot he was too close to the scope and got a bit of a shiner from that.
My daughter at 16 was exponentially easier to teach firearms to than my friend. He's a great guy, but testosterone and ego aren't helping the process.
Very valid point that the gun doesn't fit him well. Before he bought a gun he was more interested in calibers than a quality rifle. He just expected any '06/22-250/.243 would have inherent accuracy despite a platforms short comings. I finally settled on the fact that whatever he was going to buy would be more accurate than him in the first place, which is painfully obvious.
Talked to him yesterday and told him to put his rifle away, we would be shooting my .17 and .22's for a while. Ego is definitely at work here. He wants to raise the scope with rings so its more comfortable for him, despite me telling him it will have an effect on accuracy. The bolt clears the scope just fine, but its not enough for his liking. Instead of working around what works, he wants to rifle to work around him in that regard.
Bench shooting he insisted on cradling the gun itself instead of letting the bags do the work. There was initial fear the gun would rise up off the bag and knock him in the head. Though his first shot he was too close to the scope and got a bit of a shiner from that.
My daughter at 16 was exponentially easier to teach firearms to than my friend. He's a great guy, but testosterone and ego aren't helping the process.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Have your daughter teach him to shoot.2wheelwander said:
Me go home now.
oh!! That's the best idea yet!!!!
that will show him, that if you do it the right way, even a guurrrrlll can do it, hehe
Seriously... not "competing" with another guy might take his ego out of the picture and allow him to actually listen to what he's being taught.
Might not, too, but what have you got to lose??
Colorado Redneck
New member
Learning the basics with a light recoiling rifle plus good hearing protection is a good way to start. This guy decided for himself on a 30-06. That reminds me of me. It seems I have to learn things the hard way. In my teens I hunted with a 30-30. Over the years pheasant and doves were harvested with a 12 guage. Then a few years of no shooting. Wanting to return to deer hunting, I decided after reading that a 270 Winchester is an excellent round for everything from varmints to elk, to purchase a Remington chambered in .270. After a few hundred rounds the flinches had become embedded in my brain. I missed way more prairie dogs than I hit, mangled a little 2x2 buck, and almost decided to call it quits. Fast forward and now the prairie dogs fear my 204 Ruger, the speed goats frequently end in my burritos and chili after falling to a 243. But the road to this point required a lot of shooting lighter recoiling rifles, never shooting trap, and leaving the 357 in the night stand. As an old geezer, I could give a rats patootie what anybody thinks of me. Maybe the friend has to chart his own path.
I learned with a .22 LR and while I agree a .22 is a fine starter rifle for learning to shoot something else comes to mind.
I was issued an M14 rifle in 1969 during Marine Corps recruit training. While the M14 is hardly a recoil monster causing shooters to flinch. The Marine Corps at the time devoted two weeks to marksmanship training. The first week was all dry fire, we never saw a loaded round but learned the basic skills and positions. Holding and squeezing, sight picture, sight alignment and how to control breathing. Week two led up to qualification day and I have no idea how many rounds we fired prior to qualification day they final day of the final week.
We had big guys and small guys all shooting the same rifle with the same ammunition. Most of those guys had never touched a rifle up close and personal before those two weeks began and with exception of a few just about all qualified. I thought I was a shooter before the Marine Corps taught me everything I was doing wrong or simply did not know. Developing good shooting skills involves a lot more than caliber size when beginning. It involves understanding the fundamentals of marksmanship. Many who went long before us were handed an 03 Springfield and they mastered the rifle.
Ron
I was issued an M14 rifle in 1969 during Marine Corps recruit training. While the M14 is hardly a recoil monster causing shooters to flinch. The Marine Corps at the time devoted two weeks to marksmanship training. The first week was all dry fire, we never saw a loaded round but learned the basic skills and positions. Holding and squeezing, sight picture, sight alignment and how to control breathing. Week two led up to qualification day and I have no idea how many rounds we fired prior to qualification day they final day of the final week.
We had big guys and small guys all shooting the same rifle with the same ammunition. Most of those guys had never touched a rifle up close and personal before those two weeks began and with exception of a few just about all qualified. I thought I was a shooter before the Marine Corps taught me everything I was doing wrong or simply did not know. Developing good shooting skills involves a lot more than caliber size when beginning. It involves understanding the fundamentals of marksmanship. Many who went long before us were handed an 03 Springfield and they mastered the rifle.
Ron
reynolds357
New member
Rifles hurt big people worse than smaller ones.
Why is that? Not that I ever gave it much thought but I would think those with more meat on their shoulders would have less felt recoil than those like myself who are average with little meat in the shoulders.
I have noticed with age I have gravitated to my .308 and .223 guns and moved away from cartridges like my 7mm Rem Mag or 300 Win Mag flavors.
Ron
Consider this, ever shoot with your shoulder/back firmly in contact with a solid object??
In that situation, even a light recoiling rifle can hurt like hell. You may think you're rock solid, but we all "give" with recoil, though its not easily seen until recoil reaches a level above .22s.
Inertia...the bigger the guy, the more mass, the more inertia (which is resistance to movement..) so...the rifle stock pushes "longer" before the shoulder begins moving, and this can be felt as discomfort or even pain.
A bigger guy with experience shooting can use his size to better manage heavy recoil, but an inexperienced fellow hasn't learned how to do that yet, if he ever does.
reynolds357
New member
Elmer Keith pointed it out and I agree with him.
Inertia. Smaller people move with recoil. Big people stay in place and get pounded on by it
2wheel, you may want to try a ball and dummy drill. That will show up a flinch. If he's flinching, a 22 won't fix it....while it may teach marksmanship, all that will go out the window when he shoulders what he believes will slap him when he squeezes the trigger.
If you handload, reduced recoil loads can help on the work up .....
If you handload, reduced recoil loads can help on the work up .....
reynolds357
New member
Even if you hold onto the rifle like you are supposed to.
A 30-06 is a powerful cartridge (and expensive) to learn on. I shot .22LR as a small boy for years. When I was 18 I bought a 22-250 and had no problem accurately shooting it, unless I was using some of my really crappy re-loads. I was a decent shooter, but an idiot of a reloader at 18. At 18, I had one rule which applied to everything - MORE IS BETTER (yes, even with powder dispensing).
Its hard to say if I could have picked up a more powerful rifle and learn to quickly shoot it well without having shot .22lr for years. I recon, probably not.
I was taught as a young boy to control flinching through practice and proper breathing. I went to a boy's camp for 8 summers, and twice a week all summer long we had "riflery" with .22 bolt action rifles. The counselor in charge was an ass, but he would let you know when your form was bad or when you were flinching.
Its hard to say if I could have picked up a more powerful rifle and learn to quickly shoot it well without having shot .22lr for years. I recon, probably not.
I was taught as a young boy to control flinching through practice and proper breathing. I went to a boy's camp for 8 summers, and twice a week all summer long we had "riflery" with .22 bolt action rifles. The counselor in charge was an ass, but he would let you know when your form was bad or when you were flinching.
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