Why the hatred for 1911s?

[T. O'Heir]

"...Pull up YouTube..." Anybody can post any kind of nonsense they want on YouTube(and Wikipedia and any other "social media".). Do not get your education there.
"...military 1911s had better sights..." Yep, except that pistols in the military are primarily status symbols. There are not intended as anything but last ditch SD weapons.

 

[Hal]

My personal experience with a 1911 was back when I was in the Army, back in the mid '70s. The M1911-A1 I was issued was older than dirt. All of the finish was worn off. It shaked and rattled. Not particularly accurate (but then again, back then I didn't really know how to shoot handguns accurately), but what it was, was reliable with the USGI 230 gr FMJ that we were issued.

Dozens of GI's I met over the years all lamented how horribly inaccurate the "Colt .45" they tried out was. Almost all said they would rather throw the gun at someone if they had to hit them since it was impossible to make them shoot right.

One person - &BTW, he was a competitive shooter, even went so far as to say the reason why the .45 acp is so inaccurate is because the bullet tumbles as it comes out of the barrel.

After I got older - and started shooting - I quickly understood the problem....

It wasn't the gun...

As an aside - I have a Colt Custom Carry Commander. It was a special runof Commanders Colt made years ago. They ran them through the custom shop and did some cleanup on the triggers & a little other light work - bevel the magazine well for one..
It rattles like a bucket of bolts - but - it's dead nuts accurate. We're talking 8 shots into a less than 1" hole at 25 feet accurate. It works just a hair better than my full sized Kimber target model.

 

[Spats McGee]

I read and hear all the time how 1911s are unreliable and a poor choice for CCW. I am really confused by this. I have 2 that run flawlessly (Ruger & Sig), and I have buddies whose 1911s run flawlessly as well. I carry my Sig C3 a lot with total confidence.

No need for confusion. When you've been around as long as the 1911, you're bound to make a few enemies along the way.

As others have noted, one problem with saying "1911s are unreliable" is that there are so many makers of 1911s. Colt, Ruger, Remington, S&W, RRA, RIA, STI, ATI, Springfield, Kimber, DW, .....Then let's throw in that any of those manufacturers could be making them in 9mm, .38 Super, .45, 10 mm, etc., and that they could be making them in different barrel lengths. So "1911s are unreliable" is an truly, awfully broad statement.

What am I missing? Why is the 1911 suppose to be such an unreliable gun?

FWIW, my experience with 1911s is (by comparison to many other members) limited. I've only owned 3, but one was my carry gun for 3-4 years. As you might imagine, I shot that one quite a bit. Well, quite a bit for me.

There is nothing wrong with the 1911 design. It's not inherently unreliable. With that said, I do think it takes a little more TLC to keep it running right than an MPSFP (modern, polymer, striker-fired pistol). The 1911 was born in an age when men were expected to perform basic maintenance on machines all the time. Tractors, factory equipment, tools, etc. So my theory is that JMB would simply have expected men (who would have been the majority of users) to have the skills to clean & lube a pistol, and that they would do so with some regularity. (That's my theory, anyway. I have no evidence to back it up.) The 1911 that I carried is a beast in terms of reliability. She'll eat anything and come back for seconds. And she tolerates a little benign neglect very well. So does my Glock. But when I clean them ..... The 1911 is definitely a more involved process.

I was thinking of purchasing a Dan Wesson soon but there are some who are telling me I would be better off buying 3 Glocks...…..

There will always be "those guys" who think you should buy a Glock, just no matter what. Those Guys were part of the reason I refused to buy a Glock for ~25 years. If you want the DW, buy the DW.

 

[jetinteriorguy]

I've wanted a 1911 since the late 70's, but for one reason or another life just took over and I never got one. Then last year something interesting caught my eye. A local guy advertised an RIA in both 9mm and 22TCM. So I did a little research on it and bought it from him. Wow, what a sweet shooter. Dead nuts accurate with the 9mm and digested my handloads flawlessly. But the 22TCM, while interesting, had some issues. Even though the mags held 10 rounds it would only reliably function with eight rounds. Not a big deal since it's just a range toy. But the biggest problem was about every twenty-twenty five rounds or so the shell case would stick in the chamber and have to be driven out with a dowel. So I contacted RIA and they sent me a pickup tag for FedEx and I sent it back. They replaced the barrel and tuned it and I had it back in two weeks. Outstanding service and now it runs great in both calibers. For a $500.00 gun it's a great buy backed by a good company. It definite scratched my itch for a 1911 after all these years.

 

[HighDesert]

I watched a YouTube video of a fellow who was claiming the 1911 was unreliable, buried it and a Glock in mud, then proceeded to dig them out and shoot them. The 1911 failed to cycle after the 3rd shot, so pretty convincing video. Once I handled one and broke it down I could see why. At least with the new 1911s tolerances are so tight, it’s pretty easy to get stuff fought in the slide, gunk up the innards between slide and barrel to where things aren’t sliding past each other as they should. BTW, cold Frog Lube does this too, but a different argument for a different day. With some of the modern mass produced firearms, there’s a ton of slop and less complexity, so you can bugger them up more.

This is almost like getting on the Mercedes Benz thread and reading how they can pop your ears if you shut the doors too fast, therefore a Corolla is a much better car! There may be legitimate arguments to the fact one way or another, but a well isolated interior shouldn’t even enter the argument. It’s really what we’re debating here between Glocks and 1911s, albeit, Glocks are made by Glock (like Apple) and 1911s are made by....(like Windows). Too many variables...

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

No need for confusion. When you've been around as long as the 1911, you're bound to make a few enemies along the way.

As others have noted, one problem with saying "1911s are unreliable" is that there are so many makers of 1911s. Colt, Ruger, Remington, S&W, RRA, RIA, STI, ATI, Springfield, Kimber, DW, .....Then let's throw in that any of those manufacturers could be making them in 9mm, .38 Super, .45, 10 mm, etc., and that they could be making them in different barrel lengths. So "1911s are unreliable" is an truly, awfully broad statement.


FWIW, my experience with 1911s is (by comparison to many other members) limited. I've only owned 3, but one was my carry gun for 3-4 years. As you might imagine, I shot that one quite a bit. Well, quite a bit for me.

There is nothing wrong with the 1911 design. It's not inherently unreliable. With that said, I do think it takes a little more TLC to keep it running right than an MPSFP (modern, polymer, striker-fired pistol). The 1911 was born in an age when men were expected to perform basic maintenance on machines all the time. Tractors, factory equipment, tools, etc. So my theory is that JMB would simply have expected men (who would have been the majority of users) to have the skills to clean & lube a pistol, and that they would do so with some regularity. (That's my theory, anyway. I have no evidence to back it up.) The 1911 that I carried is a beast in terms of reliability. She'll eat anything and come back for seconds. And she tolerates a little benign neglect very well. So does my Glock. But when I clean them ..... The 1911 is definitely a more involved process.


There will always be "those guys" who think you should buy a Glock, just no matter what. Those Guys were part of the reason I refused to buy a Glock for ~25 years. If you want the DW, buy the DW.

I think that is funny. But so true.

Hey, I would love to have a 1911. Would probably get the most simple one made when I start to look for one. Even thinking about a RIA.

 

[44 AMP]

I watched a YouTube video of a fellow who was claiming the 1911 was unreliable, buried it and a Glock in mud, then proceeded to dig them out and shoot them. The 1911 failed to cycle after the 3rd shot, so pretty convincing video

Good to know, thanks! The next time I plan to bury a gun in the mud, I"ll certainly consider a Glock!

 

[Aguila Blanca]

I watched a YouTube video of a fellow who was claiming the 1911 was unreliable, buried it and a Glock in mud, then proceeded to dig them out and shoot them. The 1911 failed to cycle after the 3rd shot, so pretty convincing video.

Was that Ian McCollum, the Forgotten Weapons guy? (a.k.a. "Gun Jesus"?) His disdain for the 1911 is well-known, and appears to have no basis in rational fact.

It's a documented fact that the U.S. Ordnance Department acceptance testing for the M1911 included burying the test pistol in mud and then firing it. It passed. Maybe the type and grade of mud makes a difference. If you bury a 1911 in Glock-rated mud ... well, what would you expect?

 

[2wheelwander]

The difference between this thread and a motorcycle oil thread is this one has 3 pages of opinions still going strong.

 

[HighDesert]

Good to know, thanks! The next time I plan to bury a gun in the mud, I"ll certainly consider a Glock!

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

Was that Ian McCollum, the Forgotten Weapons guy? (a.k.a. "Gun Jesus"?) His disdain for the 1911 is well-known, and appears to have no basis in rational fact.

It's a documented fact that the U.S. Ordnance Department acceptance testing for the M1911 included burying the test pistol in mud and then firing it. It passed. Maybe the type and grade of mud makes a difference. If you bury a 1911 in Glock-rated mud ... well, what would you expect?

Lol, that sounds like him. One very weird guy. Seems he cannot make up his mind on which gun he is the expert on. I think he and his fellow weird partner spend most of their time at the salvation Army picking out their wardrobe. I wonder if he is a member of some kind of cult out in the desert some place.

 

[TunnelRat]

Ah, now we're personally insulting people that have the audacity to not like the 1911. Yup sounds about right. How dare someone not like the same inanimate object. Fanboyism is to firearms as water is to fish.

The irony here is that InRange has mud tests where the 1911 does better than the Glock. And it didn't stop them from publishing the videos because it is what it is. But yes, they're in a cult of Salvation Army clothing wearers that hates the magnificence of the 1911. And here I thought Glock fans were a bit much.

https://youtu.be/RNw179rHxkQ
https://youtu.be/ZreJ6BIDLj4

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[HighDesert]

Was that Ian McCollum, the Forgotten Weapons guy? (a.k.a. "Gun Jesus"?) His disdain for the 1911 is well-known, and appears to have no basis in rational fact.

No idea. Probably! Also, anyone’s guess how many tries it took him to get it to clog or what methodology. YouTube is pretty much hip wader land!

 

[TunnelRat]

No idea. Probably! Also, anyone’s guess how many tries it took him to get it to clog or what methodology. YouTube is pretty much hip wader land!

No doubt, they likely cherry picked the results just to make the 1911 look bad. It's in the by-laws of their cult after all. Of course, they also show a Glock doing even worse. So maybe they've been subsequently excommunicated?

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[Aguila Blanca]

For the record, I have nothing against Ian McCollum. I watch a lot of his Forgotten Weapons videos on Youtube. The "Gun Jesus" moniker is not intended as an insult, simply as an observation. It's not mine -- I've heard and read of any number of people who regularly use the term to refer to Ian, and I think for most it's as much a term of endearment as it is a simple shortcut to be sure you know who they're talking about. Some people aren't good on remembering names (myself among them) but, mention "Gun Jesus" and anyone who has watched one of his videos knows exactly who you're talking about.

 

[TunnelRat]

I don't take any issue with calling him Gun Jesus. It's a moniker that's stuck despite it making him cringe a bit. It's not bad natured.

My issue stems from making it sound like he's "out to get" the 1911. He spends more time shooting a Ballester Molina than most other pistols, and while not 1:1 if he really hated the 1911 he wouldn't be shooting that either. InRange has provided video evidence of a Glock doing worse than a 1911 in a mud test. 1911 fans should love them for that. And even things he doesn't particularly like he tends, in my view, to be generally objective about them (more than many on YouTube).

What I see, from fans of a number of brands of firearms, is what seems to me to be an emotional attachment to their firearm of choice. I get it. It's something you're choosing to defend your life with and most people don't enter into that lightly. But someone not choosing the same as you or not liking it to the same extent as you isn't the same as "hating" it, IMO. I think the use of the word "hate" has gotten out of control, and not just in firearms.



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[zeke]

Might help to consider how long ago the 1911 was designed, put into service and available commercially. Am guessing that jhp/target bullets were not in common use when the gun was designed, or even half way through it's history. Now a days the guns are manufactured to digest most hollow points, but not when the earlier hollow points were put into use. Result may have been years (decades) of feeding problems.

Then there was the addition of the extri large safetys, and thumbs up shooting technique. Perhaps not in consideration when the pistol was originally designed. Carry a 3 inch/4 inch version. All the carry 1911's owned that might get carried have an older (2nd) style saftey that doesn't protrude out and catch on holsters/thumbs, or get put on during firing. Last time i looked, the oem colt safetys were out of stock where i buy parts.

 

[J.G. Terry]

It runs against my experience.....

It runs against my experience: If you are a good listener it's possible to hear the wheels come off with the haters. First up, the claims of 1911 unreliability runs totally opposite of my experience.

It does not take long for the light to come on. The guy is quoting his nutball buddies, YouTube, and second string gun rags. When somebody comes up with 1911's unreliability ask them to elaborate. Enjoy the show. I have seen some really nice 1911's totally ruined by Bubba. That does not count. "Hater" is a buzz word for a fanatical and/or irrational dislike for an inanimate object in our discussions.

 

[44 AMP]

I just wish 1911 people would just shut up about it and do what they want to do and stop feeling such a need to feel vindicated. Take your insecurities elsewhere.

I think a lot of us would, if certain fanboys would also shut up and take their smug arrogance elsewhere.

Might help to consider how long ago the 1911 was designed, put into service and available commercially. Am guessing that jhp/target bullets were not in common use when the gun was designed, or even half way through it's history. Now a days the guns are manufactured to digest most hollow points, but not when the earlier hollow points were put into use. Result may have been years (decades) of feeding problems.

The 1911 prototype was submitted for testing in 1910.

Commercially available JHP pistol ammo essentially started with Super-Vel in the late 1960s.

SO about half a CENTURY between the 1911 and JHP ammo, and now about half a CENTURY since JHP ammo hit the market, so damn sure yes, modern designs are made to feed JHP from the get go.

You can, if you wish, find fault with a 1958 Corvette because it doesn't have airbags, seatbelts, or wifi, and was made to run on leaded gasoline. Oh, and yeah, it also won't do well off road or carry a cord of wood.

If those are the things you value, buy things that have them. Just don't tell me how I'm wrong or somehow inferior in my choices. Guns, books,. food. religion, the woman I married, or any other personal choices, you don't get to make that decision for me, and I don't for you.

Of course, that doesn't stop me from thinking you're an idiot if you don't listen to my advice...but I won't say so, I'll just keep that thought to myself and let you figure it out, on your own.

 

[JohnKSa]

Ok, looks like this one has run its course.

I wonder if it will ever be possible to get through a discussion like this without namecalling and the apparent need to put negative labels those who disagree with us.

On behalf of gun owners with insecurities, idiots, and smug, arrogant fanboys, this one is now officially closed.