Why shouild I keep my shotgun ?

Piggy backing on to the same "Just a thought NOT a sermon" :

KSFreeman - Come one, guys. Rifle rounds (even short Russian) zip through drywall and always seek out stationwagons full of kids. While buckshot will go through walls or a sofa, it will be slowed once it gets outside your home.

I am pretty sure he was speaking in jest. However, soft point 5.56 DOES have less penitration than most handgun rounds and certainly less than an SG round.
 
Most residental break-ins actually occur during daylight hours when the occupants are not anticipated to be home. That being said, most residential break-ins that involve confrontations do occur at night.

At 20 feet, that 20 gauge #4 shotshell will expand it's pattern even more and the shot will penetrate perhaps 6". The 7.62x39mm rifle bullet (in HP configuration) will certainly fare much better at striking vitals when fired COM.

Both rifles and shotguns have to be aimed to gain effective hits. It is unlikely that "pointing" a shotgun in the general direction of the threat when firing will be any more effective than aiming and firing a rifle, slumber roused or not, at the ranges described. A "hit" that involved a 20 gauge #4 shell using the pattern data described versus a .30 caliber miss would be quite marginal and likely ineffective (except for maybe a head shot - an even lesser likelihood considering our 'sleepy' candidate).

Incidentally, my preferred 12 gauge load is Remington #4 shot loaded as the first two rounds, followed by 01 buckshot, 12 pellet for HD. Out of either of my 22" bbl 870's, the pattern does not exceed 1" at 10 feet. At 20', it isn't much more than that. I've switched the #4 shot for #6 shot lowbrass due to my female companion possible need to use the shotgun in my absence, but patterns are quite similar with either shell. Each shotgun patterns differently.

Always shoot to stop the attack. Shooting to wound is not advisable. Neither is shooting the perpetrator on the ground unless they continue to pose a threat.

My advice is to have both type firearms handy if there is reasonable cause for alarm. If it is either/or we are discussing, I would take the shotgun for HD.
 
another perspective

I was just browsing through the older threads and would like to add to this one. In Idaho, I took a "use of deadly force" class taught by the Ada county sheriff for CCW permit applicants. One of the things they mentioned is that you may have to be prepared to get down on a knee and shoot a criminal up through the head if you're in an area with a lot of people around. Legally, they said, you're responsible for that bullet until it stops. With this in mind, a rifle bullet has a much more penetration and longer range than a shotgun charge. Even in a home invasion type situtation, you still have to know your target and what's behind it. It's a good idea to walk your house and think about what kind of weapons and tactics are suitable for the different floors/rooms/areas of your house. I like my shotgun, I like my rifle. I feel comfortable aiming and firing with both. That said, if I can get off a follow-up shot to take out a clay pigeon, I can pump fast enough to follow a body shot with a head shot. Typically body armor doesn't cover the face. :)
 
Thank you.

I really appreciate all the insightful responces. I have decided that my shotgun will continue to remain by my bed, not replaced by my AK. From what I read in this thread, a person, even wearing body armor, sounds a lot more likely to go down quick from buckshot than 7.62x39. A few people have commented that you need to be less accurate with a shotgun, and a few others have quickly pointed out that shot does not spread as much as some think at likely HD ranges. I think you need to be less accurate with a shotgun, not because shot spreads, but because of the extensive trauma it introduces. If you fire an AK in the general direction of a person's chest, and it happens to pierce their left lung, they are still going to be fully capable of emptying a magazine at you. If you make the same shot with 00 buck, I believe the person will be significantly less enthusiastic with the left side of their ribcage blown all over the far wall. And even if the guy is wearing armor, I expect the extensive blunt force of the shotgun will have, at the very least, a dramatic effect on his balance. And then there's close range head shots.





Randy: I think if your wife can handle a shotgun, she could handle an AK. They

are both very simple in operation: flick off the safety, point, pull trigger.
And an AK you don't have to pump. Not to mention what a little practice can do.





Also, I believe most will agree that a shotgun points more naturally / can be aimed more quickly than an AK.





Oh, and I do like my shotgun, very much. Beautiful brute force.
 
Maybe there's way too many variables to say whether a shotgun is better, an AK is better, an AR is better, or a baseball bat is. Under some circumtances, all of the above and more can be best.

A shotgun's a great GP weapon. For HD it's usually a very good choice, but not universally best. IMO, the shooter's the biggest and most important variable....
 
As mentioned earlier, I wouldn't underestimate the civil-suit repercussions of a scumbag lawyer holding up your AK ("Osama's favorite") in front of a jury versus holding up "Grampa's bird gun"...if indeed, it goes that far.

Unless you live near Ted Kazinski's (sp?) cabin, I don't see where you can NOT be concerned about overpenetration...unless of course you can catch the intruder between your muzzle and your mother-in-law (in which case forget the AK, pick up the .300 Magnum)...

Jeffet
 
If someone is in your house at arms reach, the name of the game is putting them down FAST. Let the word FAST burn into your soul. If he lives for one second after you shoot him, he lives long enough to kill you before you die. The shotgun puts people down faster than ANY other weapon. Period. It is not perfect. But, it is the best. If he has armor, shoot him in the head. AKs and ARs handle better and have more capacity. But, they do not put people down as FAST.

Every defensive scenario has one thing that is the most important. Home defense is FAST incapacitation. In war on the open battlefield, this is not as important. Here, it is.
 
Shotgun....You bet, I'd rely on my shotgun as the altimate home defence weapon. Infact maybe the most deadly firearm at close range...If you dont want that ole mossberg 590....I'll take it..I have a moss.590 and love it...
 
Took the 590 to the range.

9 pellet 00 buckshot had a 8" pattern at 10 yards. That was a lot wider than I expected given what I read in this thread about shot not spreading much. Even at 5 yards, that comes out to a 4" spread. (20" 12ga)











What shocked me more was the #8 shot that I got 60 rounds of because it was the cheapest at the shop ($3 per 20). The first shot I fired, at maybe 5-7 yards, I pulled the target back, noticing the one big hole, maybe 1" in diameter. From what I'd read here, that's about what I expected it to do. One big hole. Then I noticed the entire (8.5"x11") target was completely covered with tiny holes. Looking at the cardboard backer, I noticed the pattern was maybe 2 feed wide. Definately at least a foot and a half.











I am ashamed to say that was the first day I ever fired shot out of my shotgun. It was the first gun I got, and I've spent a good bit of time at various ranges. I fired maybe half a dozen slugs through it one day I went to an ourdoor range that didn't allow multiple projectile ammunition. But I never got around to beginning to put a good number of rounds through the thing until I looked for the cheapest 12ga ammo I could find. I'm not sure off the top of my head what Remington Express 12 pellet 12ga 00 buckshot costs, but it was way too close to a buck a round for my taste in target ammo prices.











So that $3 on a 20 round box of #8 12ga shot was probably some of the best $3 I've spent. Still have a couple more boxes, and I'm sure it won't be the last. And it was FUN. Blew a target through the cardboard backer. :D









I was also concerned about hitting other people's targets in lanes next to me, given the amount of spread I noticed. But they were friendly, and I said if they noticed me hitting their targets at all, let me know, and I checked later, and there were no #8 shot holes in their backers. So I'll definately be doing this again.











Oh, I did fire a couple rounds of the 00 buckshot I keep in my shotgun. It kicked, but was definately manageable.

So I'd like to repeat what I'm sure has been said here many times: Take the thing to the range !!
 
Good job, Darxus. Those little holes way off from the big one are called flyers, they're not part of the pattern, tho are part of the load, naturally.

Your spreads seem a bit extreme. Check your muzzle for damage, and see if there's anything in the bbl(like rust) that might be opening them up.
 
Something not yet brought up - is that ammo capacity usable?

Although I'd agree to "more is better," in all actuality, how many times will you be able to fire if your "visitor" is only 20' away?

Most I've heard, within 20', a person can be on top of you in 1-1/2 seconds. You'll either stop him, or not & very doubtful 30 rounds will make any difference than would 5.

Even with multiple intruders, I don't see a prolonged gunfight as very realistic.

I recall an old statistic re average LEO engagements - 1.5 shots at under 7' (?).

Sure. Not a HD scenario, but something to consider.

BTW, give me an 870 12 - or 20
 
The 9 pellet target has 9 holes, but one appears to be from the cup. I found the target I shot with 12 pellet 00 buck - it has 13 holes, including one from the cup. The holes from the pellets are in a group just under 5" - at 10 yards. This shotgun is in good shape. It's had no more than 30 rounds through it total, I've had it for about a year, and I think I take good care of it. Certainly no rust. I did just go look down the barrel, and it looked fine.
 
OK, this discussion has affected me in the wrong way so feel free to slap me around if I get a little to out of line. First off I can't imagine a close quarters HD situation where my trusty 500 loaded up with 00 bucks wouldn't be suffice. Second, If I lived in a state where there was even a remote possibility that I might have to face a jury after killing a BG who broke into my house wearing body armor, I'd move ASAP. And another thing, I realize that a 12guage or an AK fired indoors has got to hurt those sunglasses holders, but do you really think that, after being awaken by a BG breakin in, you are going to think of ear protection? Ok, sorry. Hey I said it affected me in a weird way! So here's the solution. Go out and get one of those fruity little 12ga/.308 over under numbers. When the body armor wearin BG from hell breaks in use the 12ga first to get his attention then take aim with the .308. If that doesn't do the trick, give him both barrels. If that doesn't work then lay down the gun and call him SIR! Seriously though, personally I'd go with the SG. However, I would walk though the house in my undies(uh sorry about the visual) with both weapons to see which I could better maneuver with in the close confines of mi casa. Sorry guys, I'll get back in my hole now.

Take care,
Marc
 
Marc, you're right on the money about a walk through. Bet most of the folks reading this have never done one.
 
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