Why Shotguns ??

HDM,Strange things happen when people get shot. The NYC Stakeout squad reported shooting one holdup artist with at least 10 rds of 38/357handgun ammo, and 2 rds of 00, before he stopped shooting.

Buddy of mine took an AK round through both buttocks w/o touching bone during the Nam Mess. He was unaware he was shot for quite some time, thinking the warm, wet feeling was from sphincter malfunction,not bleeding.

'Nother buddy took a 30-06 180 gr softpoint through the thigh,shot by a 73 year old hunter who thought he was a coyote. Buddy says it was like being kicked in a soccer game.Bullet missed the bone, buddy survived.

Back to shotguns, tactical training etc. Even the Army says that despite the training it gives, only about 40% of its troops are effective in their first firefight. I know I wasn't. But training does help.

And choice here is a personal thing. My reasons for favoring the shotgun include familiarity,effectiveness,reliability, intimidation,and being not as unPC as some other weapons. Other folks have different needs, skills,and opinions, and should use the weapon that seems best for them.
 
Why shotguns? Because of the ability to shock the CNS by the impact of Simultaneous Multipul projectiles. From what I have learned of the matter nothing comes close in "shock" value that a single individual will likely employ. You can argue select fire sub guns or for more effective weapons you could use a flame thrower (#1) but the collateral damage and the court house might not like either of those weapons systems.
As to the BG surviving two shots, most of the time the loads are reduced and have low pellet count. Take the benelli with full charge of 3" 00 and you have something like 120 pellets (7-8 Shots) at your disposal that can be dumped in 3 seconds. At room distances that will stop all but he most armored opponents.

As to the 308 and 12 arguement it is a little moot. But I will take the 762x51 over a 12 slug out to 100 yards. As to buck will take the fmj 308 under 40. As you said earilier it depends on load. Using low recoil vs ballistic tip might be different choice depending on range. I fequently use 600 grain hard alloy benneke slugs that penetrate cast iron sinks so I look at it as worst case senario. Best of luck.
 
I used to think just like you. Until I tested the penetration of .223 in common house materials. To make a long story short, if you use any rifle in an urban environment you will overpenetrate and possibly kill a neighbor. 00 will stop before entering a home and killing a 5 year old kid. End of argument. End of debate.

Yes. AR/AKs... are more fun and versatile. Battle -yes. Urban - No.
 
Buckshot (even the small stuff) will overpenetrate - through cheap wallboard (standard construction in cheap apartments). Even if it doesn't kill the neighbor's kid, if it causes them ANY pain, suffering or mental anguish then their lawyer will have your hide nailed to the wall, your net worth in his/her pocket and your earnings garnished for the rest of your days.

Face it folks, anything that will be effective against people will also go through walls. What you need is better walls.
 
I doubt 00 will penetrate the walls of my house and then penetrate the home of a neighbor based on my tests. My point was that a rifle will be GUARRANTEED to overpenetrate. So will a handgun. The shotgun is the ONLY urban firearm worth considering. It penetrates the least. The liabilitys of rifles or handguns are to great.
 
Each pellet of unbuffered cheap 00 buck from Sellier & Bellot easily punches through at least one layer of a steel drum and likely will through sheetrock wall. Premium Remington 000 buck blew a large fist size hole through both sides of that same drum from 5 yards.

See previous threads on this topic http://www.thefiringline.com/NonCGI/Forum2/HTML/000572.html
"The slugs and buckshot were fired from about 30 feet outside a 1x 6 solid pine fence toward a typical frame house. Both easily penetrated (1) the fence; (2) the front wall of the house (vinyl siding, 1/2 plywood, interior drywall); (3) two interior walls (two drywalls each on 2/4 studs); (4) the rear exterior wall (same as front); and finally (5) the simulated homeowner standing in the back yard. "

http://www.thefiringline.com/NonCGI/Forum2/HTML/000496.html

[This message has been edited by Solitar (edited September 11, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dave McC:
Guys, a coupla things.........

.....with a .223, 7.62X39, etc, you could be on the stage at a Greatful Dead concert and not hear squat.......[/quote]

I can tell you from first hand experience that shootings a 7.62x39 in an enclosed room, without hearing protection, will NOT make you permently deaf! Sure your ears will ring for alittle while but, nothing to bad.


Anyways in that type of event were you NEED to fire, you will be lucky if you HEAR the shot you fired! Being in a life threating senario makes your body, and mind react in weird ways!


And as for "Why a Shotgun?" All I can say is why not?

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Dead [Black Ops]

[This message has been edited by Dead (edited September 11, 2000).]
 
I am getting to like my shotgun because, through much trap shooting, I am getting rather effective at aiming it faster than I can aim any rifle. Of course, at in-house ranges, pointing is better and the rifle training (steady, sqeeze) works against the user. OTOH, I am unimpressed by the terminal performance of #2 buck 20ga and not sure that a 3" shell would do much better.
 
Thank you gentlemen for all your info and opinions. I won't run out and buy a combat shotgun but I do have an old Stevens dbl barrel, I will load up with some number 5 pheasant loads for the wife's side of the bed. I will keep my M14s on my side. You have about halfway swayed me.

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"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag and begin slitting throats." H.L. Mencken
 
First off I can't be 100% sure on my 15 yard theory, I have never been shot and I don't exactly plan on it. In my experience at 15 yards a 12 gauge with shot will leave a god awful mess. I have a friend with a SxS 10 gauge with double triggers, at close range I would think that it could near tear some one in half. Think of that 5 oz of shot delivered in a 8" patern to the stoma. Sick.
Back to the .308 vs. 12 debate if the .308 was loaded with anything but FMJs I wouldn't want to even think about it.
How about a AR loaded with Balistic TIpS?
I pray none of us will ever have to put our theorys to the test
CS
 
Re. the legal implications of firepower. I'm an attorney, and I defend individuals and small companies in civil actions for a living. While it's true the survivors of the criminal who broke into your house *can* sue you, in most jurisdictions they're gonna get less (sometimes much less) if said criminal is dead than if he is alive. Estates and survivors must sue through wrongful death and survival statutes. These vary from state to state, but are in general older and more restrictive than the wide-open, ever-expanding common law. If you only *wound* the bastard, he may end up owning your house to pay his medical bills, pain & suffering, loss of sex life etc. etc. As far as what to shoot the intruder with--more power is better. The more he suffers before he dies, the more you may have to pay in a survival statute claim. It's safe to say that there's no P&S for instant loss of brains (those he actually had) to a shotgun ;-)
 
One other aspect of this discussion might be the "Intimidation Factor". Looking at it from the Perps point of view, The sound of a shell being chambered in a 12 ga. pump could rule everything else moot, as he exits your home, "stage right". If he's dumb enough to stick around, the sight of a 12 ga. bore pointing at him might decide the issue of a shot ever being fired!

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Donnez-moi la liberté, ou donnez-moi la mort!
 
Do you guys really wait to "chamber a round" until you actually approach the suspect?

No sir, not me. That shotgun is fully loaded when I pick it up. I am not going to even consider relying on the "shotgun audio warning"...

CMOS

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NRA? Good. Now join the GOA!

The NRA is our shield, the GOA will be our sword.
 
Our shotguns are carried at 'cruiser ready' which is: four in the tube, chamber empty, hammer down, safety off. In most situations we would have the gun out but not rack one in. For those situations where we would rack one in right away (barricade with shots fired, etc) most officers have one additional shotshell in their gear that they would grab to top off the gun.

This might not seem like the ideal solution, but remember...mounting a shotgun that is ready to rock and roll is really only a smidgen faster than racking it as you mount it, if that.

Mike

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"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." -Robert Heinlein
 
I understand your point CMOS, but if I can avoid a confrontation with a BG I will. As for the readiness of my weapon, I guarantee I can put my "slam Fire" Ithaca into action as fast as anyone!! Anyway, I have a really Big Dog that makes most of this irrelevant.
 
I've *WITNESSED* Federal 00 9 pellet (Tactical Load) blow a fist sized hole in a 1 3/4" solid wood door, pass through exterior siding, right on by a wall with sheet rock and coming to rest behind a bathroom sink.

This was the result of a negligent discharge in my apartment complex. 5 out of 9 pellets passed through the first wall. These 5 pellets passed through another wall and came to rest behind a bathroom sink.

With any firearm, be very sure of your background.
 
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