Why officers shouldnt carry Glocks...

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I make no claim of being an expert. I openly qualified my statement as being limited to my knowledge,
That's pretty obvious by your false and unsubstantiated comments about the inherent safety of the Glock design.
You obviously failed gun safety 101 miserably. Keep your booger hook off the boom switch until you are ready to shoot. Weather the gun has a springy thingy on the side you have to push, or a springy thing in the trigger. There is no fault in the design if somebody has his finger in the wrong place at the wrong time. Nothing short of the suicidal practice of carrying a pistol without a round in the chamber will change that.
Block NDs as well as others are due to operator error, and you haven't given one single substantiated example of it being the design's fault.
 
the 1911 would afford me (and my CZs do afford me) with two barriers to an ND -- trigger finger control and safety lock control. That's the same number of barriers available on a stock Glock.
There, fixed it for you.
1. No finger in the trigger guard, no finger on the safe action safety lever.
2 not sufficient pressure on the trigger to release the sear.
You seem to not realize that Glock has a safety lever! It's just located in a different place.
 
The difference between a DA revolver,DA/SA semi and a striker pistol that is chambered and hot is the weight of the trigger pull when it comes to the ND issue.

I have mentioned that ergonomic studies of the common reasons for a trigger pull ND do not show that the trigger pull weight of a typical striker gun, DA/SA gun or DA revolver make that much of a difference.

Is this hard to understand?

It is counterintuitive because none of the DA revolvers popular in service during their heyday had anything resembling the short stroke of the Glock trigger, and they also required a full release trigger reset, not a little ride forward, just in case some Glock NDs are on rounds other than the first one fired.

Also, many of the documented field NDs during the wheel gun era were a result of hammering back into SA mode and either touching off a round with a thumb flub of that action, or the shooter pulled the trigger "accidentally" when its weight and travel in SA would have been even less than a standard Glock features today.

No one "freaks out" that Glocks don't have active safeties. Its critics rightfully point out that it's a pretty poor choice for general issue to a cross-section of inexpert gun handlers in both its manual of arms and its field strip requirement to pull the trigger.

The revolver was never a bad choice for routine administrative handling like clearing for cleaning and reholstering while loaded. If it were, we'd have long since heard of "wheel gun leg" and the "Model 10 racing stripe."

But we haven't, because DA service revolvers were not ND machines, especially not to the tune of 12 a year in a given ten year period as counted in only Washington Metro by itself, as cited in the article.
 
"As to your pejorative doubts and thoughts, in the spirit of a fun debate between men I'll let you express them without whining. Furthermore, I ask moderators to not come to my rescue and label you a troll. I will take the liberty of pointing out that your contributions herein, up to now, have been notably vacuous, ala most defenses by Glockaholics."

Haha yes, I am the trolling Glockaholic that doesn't even own a Glock. I've owned one, and sold it to fund a CZ75b SA. I never once said in this thread if I even like Glocks, I'm just smart enough to realize that the gun is not at fault, the negligent people that lack proper gun handling skills are. But I get it, you aren't confident enough in yourself to own and carry a gun with no safety, and I respect that. Use what you're comfortable with. But don't go around telling me my guns are unsafe just because they aren't safe when they're in your hands.
 
And to why your first two flaws are not valid. When an ND happens, it usually happens when an officer has his handgun drawn and ready, correct? At least that's what the article was saying.

I think it's helpful to reprise the three Glock design flaws that make it less safe:

- Flaw #1 -- the short, DAO light trigger.
- Flaw #2 -- absence of an affirmative external safety.
- Flaw #3 -- the need to pull the trigger to field strip the gun.

To reiterate for the benefit of some of the Glockaholics in the crowd, just because other pistols have one or more of these design flaws does in no way somehow make the Glock safe.

I don't know if most of the numerous Glock NDs happen when the handgun is pointed at a perp. My impression is this was a problem in NY, because the NYC and NY State police had been taught to stage their DA revolver triggers, and staging the light and short-pull Glock trigger is a recipe for NDs, and that this problem formed the impetus for the NY triggers.

I view deliberate trigger staging as unsafely irresponsible, regardless of the platform. Yes, it can be done safely at the range, but as people tend to react how they train, staging the trigger on a carry sidearm, even at the range, is asking for problems should the real world come a calling. The urge to stage a trigger demonstrates that the trigger -- one that is DA with a long, heavy, and gritty pull -- could use some attention. Smoothing the trigger pull in no way compromises safety. Lightening it a bit (assuming it was 10+ lb to begin with) probably won't affect safety, either. Lightening it too much (say, down to SA pull weight range, about 6 lb or less) sacrifices half of the long and heavy safety feature.

The OP's cited article gives a few anecdotes that happen be about NDs occurring with drawn Glocks. And, the article's author focuses the Glock's short trigger pull (one half of my Flaw #1) and the absence of an external safety (pretty much my Flaw #2). However, the Glock NDs I find most memorable are those where the user is further removed from full blame. Examples:

- The gentleman who, after having dinner at a restaurant with his wife, got into the front passenger's seat and had his Glock ND when he fastened his seatbelt. A worn leather holster was involved, that folded, allowing leather to invade the trigger guard, and depressed the so-called trigger safety and trigger.

- The cop who bent over to tie his shoe at which time his holstered Glock NDed (I don't recall hearing the exact cause being determined).

- The cop who, upon reholstering his Glock, had a draw string from his windbreaker enter the trigger guard, depressing the so-called trigger safety and trigger and causing an ND.

- The woman whose purse-carried Glock NDed, striking her boyfriend in the hand and her in both legs.

With Glocks it takes a lot more than simply keeping one's "booger hook off the bang switch" to carry them safely.

So if it's [a 1911] drawn, the safety is probably already off. So might as well not even have one. Which leads to what you call a flaw with the "light DAO trigger". If the safety is off on a single action gun, you've got a light single action trigger. A Glock without a safety has a 5.5-6lb trigger, with more take up and travel. So that'd make the Glock trigger harder to pull.

So in a situation where an officer has his gun drawn, how exactly is a Glock more dangerous?

Again, I do not regard mindlessly disengaging the safety lock, on a 1911 or similar pistol carried cocked and locked, during the draw to be a safe practice. That you have to impart unsafe handling upon the 1911 to make it the unsafe equivalent of the Glock demonstrates just how unsafe the Glock design is.

Furthermore, you seem to be contrasting a tuned 1911 trigger to a stock Glock trigger, which is an invalid apples-to-grasshoppers comparison. A stock 1911 that costs similar to a stock Glock will likely have trigger pull on the order of 6 lb from what I understand. And insisting that the 1911's safety be disengaged before you make your comparison is unfair, but convenient (actually essential) for you. The trouble with your position is that the 1911 does have a safety lock and, when properly used, it makes the gun much safer to carry, draw, and cover suspects with. In fact, each of the four ND anecdotes I listed above would have almost certainly not occurred if the carry gun was a 1911 rather than a Glock.

Using Glockaholic logic I could take a 1911, remove the grip and thumb safeties and trigger guard, and Mexican carry it and its only problems would be that it's too heavy with not enough capacity.
 
So none of those ND scenarios would happen with a DA/SA or DAO right? I'm guessing wrong.

Your staging the trigger argument is an example of a training problem, not a gun problem.

And when an officer draws, it's not "mindlessly disengaging a safety lock". That's training. Your safety should be off by the time you're pointing at the target.

And yes, a Glock trigger to a 1911 trigger is completely apples-to-grasshoppers. I'm not the one saying the triggers are similar, you were. A 1911 has a shorter, crisper pull. That's usually lighter too, at least in my experience. So in a situation where an officer has his gun drawn, due to the fact that his safety would be off, a 1911 would be more dangerous. Because a Glock trigger pull is longer and usually heavier than a 1911.

But if you want to go Mexican carry a 1911 with no grip safety, thumb safety, or trigger guard (which is absolutely ridiculous, I can tell you're just throwing out mindless nonsense now), with the hammer back, be my guest.
 
One thing you can't buy a power tool without some sort of safety catch /device but you can buy a handgun without any safety catch. PS As most negligent discharges seem to be people unintentionally pulling the trigger. I see the trigger safety as about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike.

First point is excellent. Second point is hilarious.

Regardless of the valid observation in point #1, I am not in favor of regulating Glocks and their ilk out of existence. I hope responsible gun enthusiasts would give safety its due and economic market and liability forces would take care of the problem.
 
Pulling the trigger to field strip a gun is not a design flaw; guns that use that process field strip exactly as the designers intended. However, the field stripping process does make pulling the trigger in some designs -such as Glock's- more susceptible to user error than in other designs.

Designs that require the slide to be locked back before a takedown lever will operate are less prone to user error than designs that do not require that action. Retracting and locking back the slide will extract and eject any round in the chamber, which should get the user's attention. With the slide locked back, it is also difficult to overlook a magazine in the gun that might load a new round when the slide is released.

Even though the trigger-pulling takedown process is not a design flaw, there are other designs that are inherently safer because they eliminate more of the chances for user error.
 
Limn... you are ignoring a lot to make your conclusions.


One... disengaging a safety during the draw is the pertinent behavior. Because if you are drawing the pistol, it is for a reason. Either to use immediately, or to cover a dangerous person. Should you not disengage the safety, during the draw stroke, you are adding time to a time sensitive scenario of immediate use, or creating a scenario in which you may need the safety off, but forget when the need arises or add time to a need for immediate response. (say the bad guy makes a sudden move)

Two... All the ND situations you described would have in all likelihood happened exactly the same with a revolver, a DAO pistol, or DA/SA with decocker. Only a pistol with a dedicated safety lever would have prevented an ND caused by faulty handling, faulty equipment , or dumb luck causing foreign objects getting into the trigger guard.


All issues with a Glock like trigger are correctable or preventable with proper training and diligence.

Many problems of glock like triggers are also susceptible in any action that does not have an external safety. (like revolvers, DA/SA or DAO)


There have been reported incidences of the safety being disengaged inadvertently during carry on SA pistols, that lead to a ND during carry.


There is absolutely NO pistol in existence that is 100% safe when in the possession of a human. Humans make mistakes, and its impossible to prevent those mistakes.

There is also no way to design an effective pistol for defense/police use that is safe either. You may make it a little safer, but not completely.
 
"Pulling the trigger to field strip a gun is not a design flaw; guns that use that process field strip exactly as the designers intended."

Guess that depends on your definition of design flaw. The Ford Pinto was intentionally designed with the gas tank behind the rear axle. Still a design flaw.

I'm careful to make sure my guns are unloaded before I break them down, but it seems to me a more intelligent design would be to NOT require the trigger to be pulled.
 
However, the Glock NDs I find most memorable are those where the user is further removed from full blame.

Now those are better examples, being inadvertent handling discharges not caused by resting one's finger on the trigger. This is where I like a thumb safety, not to protect me from doing something stupid like resting my finger on the trigger while handling it, but to protect me and others from handling incidents where I don't intend to put a finger on the trigger. I'm much more comfortable with a thumb safety on my dresser drawer gun, for example, because there's a chance I may have to handle it in the dark after being awoken by a bump in the night. I'll give up the fraction of a second it takes me to thumb the safety off after I have it in my hands, for the vasty reduced chance of a ND while I'm getting it out of the drawer and into my hands and into my control. For similar reasons, I personally wouldn't concealed-carry a Glock, though police carry in a large belt holster seems safe enough, and police are much more likely than I ever will be to need a gun that is ready to fire at all times.
 
I'm much more comfortable with a thumb safety on my dresser drawer gun, for example, because there's a chance I may have to handle it in the dark after being awoken by a bump in the night. I'll give up the fraction of a second it takes me to thumb the safety off after I have it in my hands, for the vasty reduced chance of a ND while I'm getting it out of the drawer and into my hands and into my control.

This is a reasonable concern... And one I am not personally worried with, but can see why some would.

You have concerns with concealed carry, but done properly, the holster is just as secure and protective as a duty holster.

To each their own though.
 
No one bashing the article seems to have actually read it. It is cited in the article that as much as 20% of officers instinctively put their fingers on the trigger in stress fire situations DESPITE being trained not to do it.

It would be interesting to read the research behind that conclusion, but it sounds reasonable. Think about it -- a handgun is designed for the trigger finger to naturally and comfortably rest upon the trigger. Thus, under stress, in the event of a brain lapse, or when one's attention is diverted, it is not surprising to find the trigger finger naturally straying to the trigger. In 1910 the US Army knew this and that's why they insisted on adding a thumb safety lock to the M1910. What about human nature has changed in the past 105 years?
 
wow, I take a nap and come back to 3 pages of cr..nap that I have to catch up on...soo many statements that I would love to comment on...instead of trying to hit each one, I'll just try to hit some general ideas...

One really big one if the concept and use of the word "flawed". Looking at a lot of the things in the world, clearly one's opinion of what a "flaw" is differs radically from what the designer's idea of a flaw is. Your "flaw" might be my "feature", and vice versa.

Here's another point, one not yet beaten to death in this thread, The GLock was designed for military use. So was the 1911. So were a number of other handguns, even way back when, revolvers. And those other "service" class pistols are all either originally intended for military use, close copies or analogs of guns intended originally for military use.

User safety, and the safety of bystanders has never been the prime consideration in military weaponry. For a long time, it wasn't the prime consideration among the public, either. Today, that seems to have changed.

here's another point, the almost uniquely American view that a pistol must be drawn, presented and fired with an absolute minimum of complications. I personally don't think that is a bad idea, but people differ in opinion about what is, and is not an acceptable minimum.

There is a fundamental difference in philosophy between the US and the rest of the world (absent foreign designs intended to compete in the US market).

As I see it, the "European" school was that one always had time to ready a handgun before using it. The "US" school of thought is that one might not.

European duty holsters were full flap "luggage cases" often secured with a buckled strap. US holsters secured with a strap, snap, or stud. Even our GI full flap holster fastened with a stud, making it faster to use than a buckle strap.

A great many duty class handguns designed without "American school" influence have safeties that are difficult to operate with the shooting hand in a firing grip. Many had "European" style mag release (heel type).

A different school of thought is not a flaw. It may be wrong, foolish, stupid, dumb, or a number of other words, but it is not a flaw.

GLock clearly set out to make a pistol that was as simple to operate, durable, reliable, and cheap to make as they could. In accordance with their design philosophy. In that, they certainly succeeded.

I don't happen to agree with some of that philosophy, but I don't consider them flawed.

The no safety (lever) safety avoids all of the drawbacks to a manual safety but introduces issues of its own. Different. Not flawed.

TRAINING
meaning personal skill, competence, and consistency is only obtained through focus and practice. Its level is as variable as the individual's physical abilities, mental attitude, and opportunities allow.

The police are always undertrained. The military is always undertrained. Only the special unit "operators" in both police and military get frequent training.
Also private enthusiasts. Especially private enthusiasts. Many of whom do it because they like it!

Trigger pulls
Weight is not the sole factor. Several times I saw "heavy trigger pull = inaccurate", and within limits, that isn't really always true. A good clean trigger pull of a heavier weight can often be shot better than a gritty, stagey pull of a lighter weight.

Much has been said about "safety" of pull weights and lengths in regard to AD when the gun is presented safety off, and the finger is on the trigger. I don't think the Glock style is unsafe in that condition. Nothing is, nor should be "safe" in that position. Kind of defeats the purpose.

Its all the other times, when things happen that there is a difference. A gun with a safety lock, properly used, has a certain..resistance to discharge when the trigger is accidently pulled. A Glock style trigger cannot be put in that same condition, and therefore cannot have the same resistance.

I don't recall who (might have been Cooper), but someone once said, "you have all the time you need to put a safety ON". Nothing I've seen in my life has proven that false. Everyone has their own ideas about how and when to use a safety, or the choice not to.
 
One really big one if the concept and use of the word "flawed".

Yeah a design flaw it one that causes the device to not function as intended, fail prematurely, or otherwise make the design unworkable.

The Pinto example, is not a flaw so much as it was a design that had vulnerabilities. Ones that caused safety issues outside the control of the user.

The glock design of pulling the trigger to field strip, does have an added safety concern, but one that is fully in the users control. So its simply a matter of doing things properly to ensure safety.

I can see some having issues with that, but you can not eliminate all risk... But designs like the Sig 320 are an improvement in that they help limit an area of human error.


Several times I saw "heavy trigger pull = inaccurate", and within limits, that isn't really always true. A good clean trigger pull of a heavier weight can often be shot better than a gritty, stagey pull of a lighter weight.

This is true... But it is still widely accepted that even a nice DA trigger takes more effort to learn well. Stress adds to the problem and tends to speed up the pull and that means "jerking" the trigger is more likely.

"you have all the time you need to put a safety ON"

That is true, and many NDs would have been prevented with applying that idea to properly holstering a pistol without an external safety.
 
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The "faulty product" is most likely between the ears of a user that has a neglagent discharge with a Glock. Or any other firearm for that matter.

Just because a tool is flawed doesn't mean the user of the tool is free from liability. Irresponsible use can compound a design flaw. And, anyone who buys and uses a knowingly flawed tool owns some liability should damage occur.

People drive cars, and trucks in a negligent manner, causing so called "accidents". Does that make them a "faulty" product?

If they were designed and built in a negligent manner, or if a design flaw is found after the fact and nothing is done to correct the problem, yes, such a car is faulty. Remember the Ford Pinto or Chevy Corvair?

People do dumb things on motorcycles, but in the OP's world motorcycles are probably also "faulty" products.

Motorcycles are extremely unsafe. Last time I checked the comparative risks (a couple of decades ago), a motorcycle rider who gave up his motorcycle for a life of cigarette smoking could expect to prolong his life. But, someone opting to ride a motorcycle places himself in jeopardy, not so much others. Someone opting to carry a less-safe gun not only jeopardizes himself, but also puts others around him at risk.

People use ATVs in ways that are not recommended by the manufacturer as mandated by the government. Are they "faulty" products because people use them in a manner that could be dangerous?

Obviously, damage done by using a product outside of its intended purpose is the fault of the user, not the product designer or manufacturer. There are limits, however. Take Q-Tips. They are packaged with a clear disclaimer that they are not intended to be used in the ear canal, despite that that is exactly how most of them are used. Fortunately for Q-Tips, there is no epidemic of people of people busting eardrums with their product. If all of a sudden a spate of Q-Tip-related ear harm arose, I suspect the Q-Tip folks would be justifiably concerned that their disclaimer would not hold up given that everyone, including them, know folks are sticking them in ear canals.

Blocks are no more "faulty" than any other firearm, and claiming so just gives cause for the anti-gun crowd to condemn them, and all guns.

Glocks are inherently less safe. The truth is good for society in the long run. Denial is destructive. Defending inherently less-safe guns is what gives ammo to the anti-gunners -- an example of the gun nuts and industry being unwilling to look at matters objectively and do what is right.

Just quoting an anti gun article from the LA times, official Pravda of the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia, is an example of a lack of knowledge about Glock, and most luxurious Kelly all handguns.

The Times is undeniably good for not much more than fish wrap, but the article came from the paper's op-ed page -- ie, opinion penned by someone not on the paper's editorial board. The best opportunity to read opinion untarnished by modern liberal-progressivism is on the op-ed page. In this case the author is a member of the gun community.
 
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anyone who buys and uses a knowingly flawed tool

No one buys a knowingly flawed tool.

Only the purchaser's opinion of what is, or is not a flaw is relevant to the purchaser.

You might not buy a tool you think is flawed. I wouldn't. But I will buy a tool you think is flawed if I don't think it is.
 
If the Glock is so flawed, how come I've used them since they first came out, packed them daily for over 20 years, shot them in state and local matches for another 20 years, used them in classes, used them to teach CHL classes for 10 years, yet I've never seen a student, competitor, fellow shooter, or myself, have an AD/ND of any kind?

No, the gun is not flawed, but some people's training sure is.

Deaf
 
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