Why O/U

The biggest issue / from my perspective - is not the load ... its the mental attitude. Zippy and OneOunce both shoot a lot of targets / and I shoot a few too ...and I see both points / and I end up in the middle, where I shoot 1 oz of shot / usually 8's for Trap from the 16 to 20 yard lines.

I'm not a registered Trap shooter ( my parents were married :rolleyes:) - but even if I was ...I'd still shoot 1 oz of 8's probably.

For Trap specifically - I go to a heavier and longer gun / because the game of Trap has less barrel movement left and right than Skeet. The heavier gun helps me smooth out the swing a little / without the gun feeling like "a big ole sewer pipe" that I'm swinging ...so I go to a 32" barrel, 12ga - Browning XT - that weighs about 10 lbs. For singles, I always shoot the lower barrel first ....because its more in line with my shoulder, recoils directly back, etc ... but both barrels should hit the same point of impact / if the gun is built and regulated correctly.

For clay target games with more barrel movement left to Right / Skeet, Sporting Clays, 5 Stand .... I go to a gun like the Browning XS Skeet with 30" barrels, and one that weighs about 8 1/2 lbs ... lets me move it a little faster / but still enough weight to keep it fluid on follow-thru. I have the same gun in 12, 20, 28ga and .410 - and all 4 of them are set up the same way / at about the same weight ( even though the 20ga, 28ga and .410 are all built on a 20ga receiver ) vs the bigger and heavier 12ga receiver. I add about 8 oz under forend / and 8oz in butt stock ( keep the balance the same between my hands ) ...

But when it comes to loads, weights or lengths of guns ... there isn't a clear one size fits all. I like these heavier and longer guns - and high combs ...( and Zippy will probably point that out ) - and he and OneOunce favor the more traditional Italian guns ....(Beretta, Perazzi, etc ) ...and even some S X S's ...

I like shooting a 20ga for Trap once in a while / just for grins ... but I don't have ( or want ) a 20ga gun that weighs in at 10 lbs .... so I just shoot my Trap guns ( and drop the load to 1 oz / and occasionally 7/8oz ).

My primary shell I shoot for Skeet, Sporting, 5 Stand, Trap in 12ga - are my reloads ... 1oz, 8's, at around 1225 fps .....and I tend to just load them up / leave them alone ...so they are all the same. I don't want some at 1 1/8 oz, some at 7/8oz, some at 1 oz ( and use a magic market to mark the bases, etc ) ...so I just use one shell for everything. Now for really long targets / like 50+ yards out - I will carry a box of 7 1/2's at 1300 fps ...to reach out there a little more ( for Sporting or 5 Stand )... and I might shoot those loads at Trap if I was shooting from the 26 and 27 yard line .....but that yardage is for Pro's like Zippy and OneOunce ...
 
I will still disagree with my esteemed colleague Zippy. I am NOT a major trapper - I'm more of a sporter; BUT I have equalled my best trap score (24) with my 28 gauge and a SK choke from the 16. I have shot "Custers" from the 30 yard line with my 20 and a full choke and I stayed right to the end. (The guy I lost to had 50 years of trap experience). It can easily be done IF you, your load, your choke, your gun fit, and your mind set are up to it. Friends of mine, along with myself, have used our 20s and 28s on sporting layouts designed for the 12. There wasn't any target out there that we couldn't break (assuming my criteria above was in place) successfully.

Is it a little harder if you're going against a guy with a Ljutic custom-stocked to him and his pet 1-1/8 oz load from the 27? Sure, but by the time you get THAT serious about competition, you'll have already bought your dedicated trap gun.

The thing to do is to get your gun to fit you properly - whether you pay $$ for a pro, or do it yourself - and practice on your weaknesses with a coach or mentor. If a certain type of target is giving you fits, see if they'll set the machine to only throw those targets and spend a few rounds with someone watching as you learn whatever technique makes you successful. That is something my group has done as well. We went to one of the sporting courses that a few stations that had previously kicked our butts. We shot the equal of two full rounds on three stations practicing and helping each other get the read, lead or speed correct so we could break it.

Start off having fun - the tenseness of competition can wait until you think you're ready for it.
 
But when it comes to loads, weights or lengths of guns ... there isn't a clear one size fits all. I like these heavier and longer guns - and high combs ...( and Zippy will probably point that out )​
You betcha, boys and girls, they don't call him Big Jim for nothing. I'm 6-2+, 220+ and I feel positively petite next to Big Jim. Being tall, like my friend Jim, and shooting those long barrels puts him a little closer to the targets. :D Don't let Jim's modesty fool you, he knows what he's doing with a shotgun and he's a well qualified pistol shooter.
 
The length and weight of the gun make them more natural to swing and lead the target with, am I correct? I shoot pretty decent with a Mossberg 500, but I picked that up just to get started with the sport.

Another advantage with the O/U that I've heard about is that when firing the lower barrel, rather than the upper barrel, the gun tends not to flip up as much and is more comfortable to shoot. So, do people shoot singles with an O/U with the lower barrel only?
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Yes, yes, and yes.....:D

Longer barrels help keep your swing momentum going. Short barrels have the term "whippy" typically associated with them. They are faster to start moving and even faster to stop - which cause misses behind the bird. A typical 12 gauge target O/U weighs in the 8-10# range, the typical target semi about a pound less. Field guns, meant for carrying a lot and shooting little will weigh up to 2# less than the target version. Means you'll feel more recoil, but you're usually not taking as many shots in as short a time span and you're wearing some extra clothing.

Many folks, myself included, prefer to use the lower barrel - it is more in-line with the wrist of the gun and tends to direct the recoil more straight back, thus helping with muzzle rising. If you look at a lot of dedicated trap single guns, they feature what is called an "unsingle" barrel - which is located where the lower barrel on O/U would be coupled with a very high rib.

As to your Mossberg - with the advent of the pump, it replaced many SxS guns that were used for trap - a single sight plane, etc., coupled with great reliability made the choice for decades. IMO, there weakness lies in their lightweight making recoil over many rounds very fatiguing. If you shoot other games requiring a fast second shot, that exposes their other main weakness - the inability to maintain a smooth swing on the target. I know there are folks who makes it seem like a semi - I have known several personally who are excellent with their pump on a second shot. Again, IMO, those folks are few and far between. Why give yourself another motion and potential miss when there are guns out there that eliminate that issue? A semi or O/U do that.

Once you decide if trap, or any of the other fun clay games are for you, ask around to see what folks are using; borrow them for a round if you can, try as many as you can; talk to them about reliability and repairs, resale, etc. and then go get yourself the best gun you for your chosen game.

Most important of all is to go and have some fun.
 
Now, Jim, while I favor the litheness and balance of those Italians beauties, my wallet currently says to use the reliability of the Japanese - I use Brownings - a 12 with 32" barrels, and a 20 with 30" barrels.

And Zippy - at only 220, you're a lightweight...........(I WISH I was only 220):p
 
I have equalled my best trap score (24) with my 28 gauge and a SK choke from the 16.​
Oneounce, there's no doubt it can be done, but you're an accomplished shooter. I love my 28s, but for a new shooter, I recommend giving him all the advantages I can to maximize his performance. For trap that would include a 12-ga with 1 1/8-oz.

We've all seen potentially shooters give up because they try the shooting sports unprepared. I don't know how many times I've seen it happen: A group of eager new shooters arrive at the gun club with their new pumps that are still stiff from the factory, a carton of bull bargain ammo and very little experience. They try a few rounds of trap and a few of skeet, and realize it isn't as easy as it may look. Many's the time they depart with their egos deflated and their enthusiasm on the wane. It's too bad more shooters aren't like my new friend, WW2, he took his R870 to a sporting clays lesson form a certified instructor and now he's off in the right direction.
 
I am FAR from an accomplished shooter.......ALL of my targets do break, mostly from hitting the ground, not my shot patterns....:D

I can count the number of times I shot rounds of trap on both hands (I'd rather join you on the skeet field if there's no sporting or 5-stand or FITASC around) - but that's just MY preference.

I like to make challenges for myself - shoot skeet low gun, take a true pair one way, then the other, even if harder - just to see if I'm up to it and whether I was reading "the line" correctly - Again, just what I like to do.

All my point was, is that a 20 will not be a handicap to the new shooter from the 16 assuming that other criteria was met, so he should feel confident in trying it. IF he decides to stick with trap, then by all means, a dedicated 12 gauge ranging from a BT-99 to Ljutic or Seitz is in order.

One of these days, I hope to borrow a friend's MX-20/8 he had built for Argentina, and use it on one of the sporting courses - chokes .016 in each barrel - would be fun.......;)
 
See .... I knew I'd get both Zippy and OneOunce back into this discussion ...

I've been on a diet ...I'm down to a svelte 6'5" and 290 lbs ...( now my buddy Dave chokes when I say it ...) .. he doesn't think anyone over 250 could ever be svelte ...but he's just jealous...and I feel better than I did at 320 lbs ( now if I can just get my shoulder back to 100% after the "rebuild"..... as I approach the big "60" ....but that just means I'm just a "pup" compared to you old guys ....

stay well guys .....

Its rainy up here in the Northwest ...again / so I had to spend my day off ... shooting my new Henry Big Boy rifle in .357 mag / and a couple of my model 27 S&W's yesterday for entertainment ...instead of my Skeet guns ... .. I know this is a shotgun forum ... but a guy has to be able to adapt ...
 
skinny kid

Hmmm. At 198 and 6ft.2in, I guess I'd be the skinny kid on the line compared to you guys.
What I'm intent on doing before I buy another gun is cycle through the ones that I have just to see how they and I do. They are all field guns - SXSs, pumps, the one O/U that I mentioned, a semi-auto, and one single (an old Savage 220 to which I have added a pound of weight so as to make it steadier. I'm curious as to what a simple gun like that will do.) Competition - far off, if ever. I do compete with rifles and pistols; shotguns....?
Pete
 
One thing about skeet and sporting I have found is the give and take banter back and forth with good natured ribbing as a fun part of the game. That makes it something more special to me. Other games and activities don't seem to have that interaction - at least in the rifle and pistol and trap I have done or watched in the past
 
Most of us only got so far on our own ...trying different stances, guns, etc ...

and it will usually take a Mentor / or a coach ... to help you fine tune some of the things you're seeing and doing that you may not be aware of.

One of the first things you should do / take your gun to the pattern board with a full choke at 25 yards or so ... and shoot it at a point on board. See if the gun hits where you look .. If it doesn't / it will tell you a lot about how that gun fits you. You said you have all "field" stock guns / and they may or may not fit you ...but chances are from each mfg, they are all a little different.

Then keep a log on your scores .... missed a hard left at station 1 / missed 2 straight aways at station 3 ... and see if there is a pattern. With a mentor watching you shoot / they may see that you stop your gun ( no follow-thru) - or you may jump at a target (slap at it) vs see it and make a smooth move on it ...or how your feet are spaced, how wide ....where do you look(beyond trap house a little ).... and a lot of things ....

There are some real good DVD's out there too / sunrise videos ...on all the clay target games ...... and then when you get older, like some of us,...your eyesight will go to heck ....and you have to learn different hold points all over again ....

None of these games are as easy as they look ... ( I'd pay a lot of money to get even below average eye sight back ..)...but even my bad days are great ! Just keep at it .....make modest goals / like averaging a 16 - and missing no more than 2 targets on any station / then go for a 17 or an 18 ... then work on a 20 avg ( no more than 1 miss per station )....then work on 21, 22 and 23 average .... ( a pair of 25's and a pair of 24's isn't a bad day ....but its still only a 24.5 avg ..) ......be honest with yourself / some days you have it ...some days you don't. Practice hard / just like you'd shoot in a tournament.

My buddy and I do something stupid / we shoot for a nickel a round ...and as dumb as that nickle is / I want it really bad ...( and he used to be a nationally ranked Skeet shooter ...so its a cold day in - - - - , when I beat him ... let alone at 4 rounds ...but even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while... I can beat him at Trap, Sporting and 5 Stand ...but Skeet is his game ...and I really want those nickels...
 
As to your Mossberg - with the advent of the pump, it replaced many SxS guns that were used for trap - a single sight plane, etc., coupled with great reliability made the choice for decades. IMO, there weakness lies in their lightweight making recoil over many rounds very fatiguing. If you shoot other games requiring a fast second shot, that exposes their other main weakness - the inability to maintain a smooth swing on the target. I know there are folks who makes it seem like a semi - I have known several personally who are excellent with their pump on a second shot. Again, IMO, those folks are few and far between. Why give yourself another motion and potential miss when there are guns out there that eliminate that issue? A semi or O/U do that.
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Well, yeah. I've got the Mossberg with the 28 Accu-Choke barrel. I only have a full choke, though...
My cousin shoots trap with a NEF Pardner with, I believe, a 20" or so barrel. He does pretty good with it. Better than me with the Mossberg.

Even with the 28" barrel, it still feels "rushed" and "whippy" (that is actually the most perfect word to describe it!) to me. I'd love to have gotten an O/U, but being a College Kid with a fairly limited budget, I went with something that had more use than just trap/skeet shooting. I hope to someday have myself a very nice O/U.
 
when I get old....

and then when you get older, like some of us,...your eyesight will go to heck ....
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Don't have to worry about that. It's already happened. I'm 63. Getting in to this late.
Pete
 
Well, then you better hurry up and get one of them expensive guns - they still have the trap club across the Verrazano in Staten Island?

For trap, the BT-99 is still hard to beat for reliability at a price just somewhat nicely south of the price of a Ljutic; although that Ljutic trigger is nothing I have ever felt before, amazingly simple, very well made.

Have some fun!
 
Those low recoil/low noise loads that have that warning on the side of the box "may not cycle semiauto shotguns", work just fine in O/U shotguns, even the ones chambered for 3 inch magnums.
And, the empty shells stay in the chambers until you are ready to open the gun, a feature much appreciated by those who still reload shotshells.
 
Don't have to worry about that. It's already happened. I'm 63. Getting in to this late.
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Yep, me too. I turned 60 on March 20th. I started shooting clays about 2 years ago. Started with an 870, moved to a Stoeger M2000, then a Beretta A390 sporting, then a Beretta 686 26" field, and now a Cynergy Classic Sporting, 30" barrels and adjustable comb.

I have been through Shotgunning, the art and the Science, by Bob Brister and Successful Shogtunning by Peter Blakeley several times. I have reviewed Todd Bender's DVD on Skeet many times. I have shot around 20,000 rounds over the last 2 years. I am about as far as I can go on my own.

Friday, I will be taking an all day clinic with Mike McAlpine. My first professional clays instruction. I have had professional instruction on defensive shotgun, and combative pistol, so I know the value of having a professional teach you.

I am eagerly looking forward to it and my goal is to move my sporting clays scores from the high 60's to the high 70's, and my skeet scores from around 22 to 23 to my first 25.

Now having said all that I have arrived at the Cynergy and as far as I can tell (everything changes), at this point at time I'm not looking for anything else. It fits me well, I can shoot it for extended periods comfortably and it shore is purtty.
 
yep

they still have the trap club across the Verrazano in Staten Island?
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Yep, that's the place. Staten Island Sportsman's Club.
I very much liked the Trap experience. I was lucky enough to have a friend - an accomplished shooter and teacher - stand behind me for the last round and go over each shot before and after. When I did what he said to do, the birds broke.
Pete
 
An O/U has less weight in the action, and more at the tip of the barrel. It actually brings the balance point closer to the middle of the gun. That, and the extra weight toward the end of the barrel helps to smooth out a choppy swing.

All that being said, I enjoy taking my 870, and factory ammo out to shoot sporting clays, and rub it in when my walmart guns & ammo gets the high score of the day, vs dad & friends expensive O/U's, and reloads.

That being said, if I borrow the O/U I used to shoot, I win by 5 instead of by 1.
 
It fits me well, I can shoot it for extended periods comfortably
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The key to success, no matter what the gun or course of fire

When you learn all that good stuff, please pass it down to us floundering mortals........:D
 
Comments about "old eyes"

I'm 61 and my vision is 20/15 without glasses! About five years ago I got Lasik (misspelled) eye surgery. Best money I ever spent. I had 20/15 up until my mid 40's and then my arms go too short. I put up with trying a lot of different prescriptions so I could shoot and nothing really worked well. I finally went to an eye surgery clinic associated with Strong Health in Rochester, NY. Took all of six minutes per eye to get my distance vision back. It makes shooting a shotgun a breeze. It will not give you your close up vision an distance vision both but if you really miss the visual acuity for shotgun shooting you can have it if you pay the price.
 
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