Why not plastic handgun shells, like shotgun shells?

Anyway, there is a reason why high brass is used on rounds like 00buck or sabot slug ammo and low brass is used on birdshot. It depends on the amount of powder and is defiantly NOT there just for looks. You are 100% correct that its needed for extraction as well.

It's not quite that simple. There are MANY factors that determine the pressure level inside a smokeless cartridge or shot shell. The variables range from primer brissance (how "hot" the primer is), to powder burn rate (how it burns under pressure), to the type of wad used in the shell (does it cushion against pressure spikes, or help create them?), to the payload in the wad (3/4 oz? 1 oz? 1.5 oz?), to the type of crimp on the shell (rolled? star crimp? glued over-shot cards?), to the powder charge (amount of powder), to the size of the chamber it's fired in, and dimensions of the bore the payload/projectile must travel down.

Many "high brass" loads are running fairly mild pressures. ...But the major ammunition companies can't control what shotgun that shell gets tossed in. As such, some loads that don't need a "high brass" base get one anyway.

Are you saying the brass on these 2 shells are for looks since the height doesn't matter and isn't needed?

If the pressure level of the buckshot round is high enough, a metal base might be necessary. But, the 1 oz load of bird shot... is a moderate load. It could get away with 100% plastic, without issue (as far as pressure is concerned). (Extraction in an auto-loader is a separate issue.)
 
The length of the brass section on a shotshell has no bearing on strength. High brass shells are an artifact left over from paper shotshells. On a paper shotshell, it served the purpose of keeping the powder from burning through the hull when higher powder volumes were used in heavier loads.

Shotgun shells still aren't well understood by the layman (do most shooters even know what a dram is?), so most people think it looks stronger, and it also offers the practical purpose of allowing one to rapidly differentiate between shells by look and touch.

Activ hulls only had a steel washer in the base for extraction purposes.


With the popularity of aluminum and steel cased ammo, it is kind of surprising that we don't see any plastic pistol ammo.
 
The argument supporting not having to reload due to the low cost of plastic rounds does not hold up to the common sense test. Have you priced new shotgun shells recently?
 
"The length of the brass section on a shotshell has no bearing on strength. High brass shells are an artifact left over from paper shotshells. On a paper shotshell, it served the purpose of keeping the powder from burning through the hull when higher powder volumes were used in heavier loads.

Shotgun shells still aren't well understood by the layman (do most shooters even know what a dram is?), so most people think it looks stronger, and it also offers the practical purpose of allowing one to rapidly differentiate between shells by look and touch.

Activ hulls only had a steel washer in the base for extraction purposes.


With the popularity of aluminum and steel cased ammo, it is kind of surprising that we don't see any plastic pistol ammo."


Best post of the thread so far!
 
Some semi-auto shotguns will only cycle with high brass.
That is a fuction of how stiff their recoil springs are and has nothing to do with whether the shotgun shell itself is strong or weak.
 
Back in the late fifties or early sixties, there was a company known as the Dardick Corporation that marketed a handgun having a revolving carrier that utilized a proprietary, plastic, triangular-shaped case enclosing a cartridge that was dubbed the "tround". I have no idea when the last one was made or how many were produced but I imagine they'd fetch a pretty penny in a somewhat restricted collector's market today.
 
I believe (among other things ) it has to do with the cycling of the cartridge.

The projectile must not move in relation to the shell (effectively making the cartridge longer or shorter due to the violent shuttle from the magazine into the chamber) in order for autoloading to be consistent. Brass (kind of) ensures this, plastic would be less stable.

As always, I could be wrong.
 
This is interesting. It seems like it hasn't been that long since plastic was introduced for shotgun shells. I remember a photo in an article where they'd put some through the washing machine (Why, I don't know). But I guess that was at least 40 years ago. Time flies.

But if you want to use plastic, that's one thing. If you just want to avoid using brass, that different and it's been done. I don't know why aluminum isn't more commonly used, at least for handgun ammo, but perhaps because it isn't reloadable or at least it isn't supposed to be. The primers are Berdan, which technically is reloadable but try to find some. I think only CCI made them and just for revolver cartridges. I have some in .45 Colt and I think maybe the shot cartridges for .38/.l357 are aluminum cases, also. But it wasn't particularly less expensive.
 
Shotshell Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) in PSI

10 gauge 11,000
12 gauge 11,500 (except 3-1/2 in.)
12 gauge 3 1/2 in.14,000
16 gauge 11,500
20 Gauge 12,000
28 gauge 12,500
.410 Bore 2 1/2 in. 12,500
.410 Bore 3 in. 13,500
http://randywakeman.com/shotgun_pressures.htm

SAAMIpistolpressure.jpg


As you can see, the highest shotgun pressure is 14,000. This is exceeded by most handgun cartridges. I assume that plastic is not up to the job of safely containing that level of pressure.

It might also be that plastic would need to be thicker than brass to be stiff enough to function in autos, this would reduce the volume of the case. The smaller the case the more that the thicker case would reduce internal volume.

Or it might be that the ability of brass to hold a bullet with a crimp or without a crimp as needed for proper pressure to develop when the powder is ignited, can not be achieved with plastic.
 
As already posted, plastic cases can present a problem as pressure rises. I have shot a bunch of the .223 stuff without a problem. You really notice the difference in the weight between a 20 or 30 round mag of brass ammo and the plastic stuff.
 
I have a couple plastic cased .38 special rounds in my collection. They have a plated, heeled bullet like a .22 rim rimfire. The bullet just snaps into the case. It looks like regular decapping a priming tools would be required but the bullets can be seated with your fingers.

I dumped out the powder and I'm keeping the pair as a curio. I'd post pix but it would likely take me all day to find them.

Tony
 
I guess it comes down to powder since it was used for many years for structural strength but that was with blackpowder and since smoke-less powder needs less volume to get the same effect, lower brass could be used but I wouldn't trust a 100% plastic shell if for nothing else but extraction. Everything said is right and wrong but it depends on the type, quality and era of shotgun shells being used.

Close, but not quite right about the brass height.
High brass shells are an artifact left over from paper shotshells. On a paper shotshell, it served the purpose of keeping the powder from burning through the hull when higher powder volumes were used in heavier load

BINGO!

Sorry for the thread veer (nearly unavoidable talking plastic cases), but lets get this out of the way. Shotgun shells for decades were made of fiber, "paper", and brass. Roll crimps and over the shot card wads. Thick fiber over the powder (under the shot) wads, a fiber "base wad" that was part of the case head, and the brass case head on the outside. NO plastic shot cup, hulls, or wads.

Target and light field load cases had a high base wad, which left a much smaller room for the powder. This was intentional, they were light loads. They had low brass case heads, that was all that was needed for reliable head space and extraction.

Heavy field loads & slugs, had high brass for more strength, because the cases had low base wads inside, to allow for more powder. A benefit, as already noted was the prevention of burn through.

By the 1950s, plastic was the new high tech and everything you can think of was being made of it. Not everything worked, but in shotshells, it did. This new plastic case ended the burn through problem, and seemed plently strong for the low pressures involved.

However, its tough to make a plastic that is both soft (flexible) and hard (ridgid) where it needs to be. Plastic can be hard enough, but gets brittle, and the small rim of a shotgun shell has to be fairly rugged for its size. Too hard and it breaks, too soft and extractors slip off or pull through.

The brass was kept, and the traditional height was kept also, as a simple visual and tactile identification. Its what people were used to seeing, and trusted.

Some all plastic shotshells have been done, a Winchester one was very popular, but only in target loads, as far as I know.

CCI has a large line of aluminium cased handgun rounds, under the name Blazer. They are berdan primed, specifically to discourage reloading. They cost a little less than brass cased ammo. I haven't bought any in years, but back before the great ammo shortage and "Obamascare", they were about a buck less than regular ammo.

They work pretty well in revolvers, and short auto pistol cases, but not well with long auto pistol cases, (magnum revolver rounds in auto pistols).

Plastic can be alot of things, nearly all things, but its forte' is being one thing at a time. And its easily moldable, because its one thing at a time (homogenous). Plastic doesn't temper or anneal well, compared to metal. Its flexible, but not ductile like metal. Remember cases have to expand to seal,(and release the bullet) and then spring back to allow extraction.

At low pressures this isn't much of a problem. But high pressures tend to "weld" the plactic in place. It takes a lot of work to come up with a formula plastic to work like brass, or even steel.

Apparently it can be done, as the plastic .223s reported in this thread proove.

But, how practical (including expense) can plastic cased ammo be? As mentioned, how do you make it hold a conventional bullet the way metal does?

I'm a dedicated reloader, who doesn't even much like berdan primed brass, let alone steel aluminium, or plastic cases. It may not be true, but I believe it is, that I get more out of my invenstment in ammo than someone who shoots throw away stuff.
 
ID to OD ratio, plain and simple, think about it. Make a .357 shell the same thickness/structual integrity as a 12ga PSI. Smaller ID. It could happen, just make the OD bigger for the shell.

Sorry to sound confusing, at least it makes sense to me, it's quite simple.
 
People talking about reloading are missing the point, the rounds would be so cheap you wouldn't need to reload anymore/it wouldn't make sense to reload anymore.

Because they're plastic, they would be cheap? That's a good one! Look around you at all the high dollar plastic stuff now. Wouldn't make sense to reload anymore? I'm guessing that you don't reload...
 
To add another bit if trivia about USAC, that company failed, but the ashes became Rainier Ballistics, a leading supplier of copper coated bullets.
 
I don't know why they shouldn't make plastic cartridges and bullets. It seems they would go well with the plastic guns. :p
 
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