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Why No .22LR Hard Casts?
- Thread starter Dragline45
- Start date
Do you know how many...
Winchester 1890's and First and Second edition 1906's are STILL shooting.
Putting a hard cast bullet through one is about the same as giving
"hard likker to your great-grand-dad"!
That's why we are know seeing the jacketed .17 and .204 caliber coming out for when lead bullets are banned.
Winchester 1890's and First and Second edition 1906's are STILL shooting.
Putting a hard cast bullet through one is about the same as giving
"hard likker to your great-grand-dad"!
That's why we are know seeing the jacketed .17 and .204 caliber coming out for when lead bullets are banned.
I have pulled quite a few .22 LR bullets and have never seen a hollow base.
They aren't as big a cavity as a hollow-based wadcutter, more like a skirt, but the idea is the same, to expand and seal gases. I've never seen a flat-based .22 LR.
Boomer58cal
New member
Yep 22 long rifle bullets have a concave base. Nothing near as drastic as civil war-era conical bullets but its there nonetheless.
Boomer
Boomer
Sorry i'm late to this thread, but i've done a lot of relevant testing and i believe i can offer a lot of very good info that has not been discussed, so....
There is actually one area- two really, where hard cast lead bullets would have a pronounced effect on the real world performance and effectiveness of modern .22LR.
I have tested numerous calibers against .5" and 1" polycarbonate (bulletproof) glass, and against various soft body armors.
Believe it or not, 30gr flat nose solid Aguila Supermax ammo will cleanly penetrate .5" polycarbonate that stops .45 acp FMJ fired from a 5" government model 1911 pistol and 1100+ fps Buffalo Bore .380+P solid copper hollowpoint ammo dead cold.
While it is a solid, the supermax 30gr flat nose bullet is actually very soft, and deforms quite a bit when shot through hard barriers. I believe a hardcast lead bullet of the same profile and weight/velocity would actually easily penetrate 1" polycarbonate bullet proof 'glass'.
Also, i have tested the same round against level IIA, II and IIIA soft body armor. Even with the soft bullet design, the supermax 30gr solid will defeat IIA with ease, and comes very close to defeating level II. I believe that with a hard, non expanding bullet, it would easily penetrate virtually any level II and probably most types of level IIIA soft body armor. (not all IIIA is created equally, some of it will actually stop hot SS192 FN 5.7mm ammo, some others will not)
Buffalo Bore used to make a 115gr+P+ 9mm para load that used a brass jacketed hardcast lead montana gold bullet with a very shallow hollowpoint that in my tests would reliably penetrate a 25 layer safariland IIIA vest with ballistic stab protection, when fired at a velocity of 1400fps.
The supermax round hits 1700fps and has much smaller frontal area than 9mm, so it would actually dramatically outperform the buffalo bore 9mm+P+ round, and almost all pistol calibers, in tactical barrier penetration if it had a hard cast lead bullet.
Also, with a hard cast lead bullet, the supermax would punch through heavy animal bone and muscle much, much, much better.
One never thinks of the .380 as a dangerous game trail defense round, but Buffalo Bore's 100gr+P hard cast flat nose round will shoot clean through a 31" thick block of gelatin, and has actually shot clean through an insurgent by an infantryman that was knocked on his back and fired up at his attacker (using a Ruger LCP) who was about to smash his skull in with the butt of his rifle. It entered the hip, went clean through it, and traveled all the way up through the body hitting and piercing the opposite shoulder bone, stopping just beneath the skin. The insurgent was instantly stopped from that single round of 'wimpy' 100gr+P .380 ammo.
There are accounts of this incident on the web if you google it. It happened in Afghanistan.
People say use a minimum of .44 mag on a black bear, but the truth is that this 100gr+P round has about 300% more penetration than a .44 magnum 240gr JHP. The 100gr+P round also has a nice wide flat meplat, so it will leave close to a full diameter hole, probably the same exact diamater as a hard cast lead .357 magnum would.
A deep .35 caliber hole is a deep .35 caliber hole, it really doesn't matter what caliber creates it.
Hard cast lead offers vastly superior performance vs soft lead bullets in both tactical barrier penetration and soft tissue performance.
So there would very much be uses for a .22LR hypervelocity supermax hardcast lead bullet. It would be an awesome survival or SHTF round for a .22 rifle.
There is actually one area- two really, where hard cast lead bullets would have a pronounced effect on the real world performance and effectiveness of modern .22LR.
I have tested numerous calibers against .5" and 1" polycarbonate (bulletproof) glass, and against various soft body armors.
Believe it or not, 30gr flat nose solid Aguila Supermax ammo will cleanly penetrate .5" polycarbonate that stops .45 acp FMJ fired from a 5" government model 1911 pistol and 1100+ fps Buffalo Bore .380+P solid copper hollowpoint ammo dead cold.
While it is a solid, the supermax 30gr flat nose bullet is actually very soft, and deforms quite a bit when shot through hard barriers. I believe a hardcast lead bullet of the same profile and weight/velocity would actually easily penetrate 1" polycarbonate bullet proof 'glass'.
Also, i have tested the same round against level IIA, II and IIIA soft body armor. Even with the soft bullet design, the supermax 30gr solid will defeat IIA with ease, and comes very close to defeating level II. I believe that with a hard, non expanding bullet, it would easily penetrate virtually any level II and probably most types of level IIIA soft body armor. (not all IIIA is created equally, some of it will actually stop hot SS192 FN 5.7mm ammo, some others will not)
Buffalo Bore used to make a 115gr+P+ 9mm para load that used a brass jacketed hardcast lead montana gold bullet with a very shallow hollowpoint that in my tests would reliably penetrate a 25 layer safariland IIIA vest with ballistic stab protection, when fired at a velocity of 1400fps.
The supermax round hits 1700fps and has much smaller frontal area than 9mm, so it would actually dramatically outperform the buffalo bore 9mm+P+ round, and almost all pistol calibers, in tactical barrier penetration if it had a hard cast lead bullet.
Also, with a hard cast lead bullet, the supermax would punch through heavy animal bone and muscle much, much, much better.
One never thinks of the .380 as a dangerous game trail defense round, but Buffalo Bore's 100gr+P hard cast flat nose round will shoot clean through a 31" thick block of gelatin, and has actually shot clean through an insurgent by an infantryman that was knocked on his back and fired up at his attacker (using a Ruger LCP) who was about to smash his skull in with the butt of his rifle. It entered the hip, went clean through it, and traveled all the way up through the body hitting and piercing the opposite shoulder bone, stopping just beneath the skin. The insurgent was instantly stopped from that single round of 'wimpy' 100gr+P .380 ammo.
There are accounts of this incident on the web if you google it. It happened in Afghanistan.
People say use a minimum of .44 mag on a black bear, but the truth is that this 100gr+P round has about 300% more penetration than a .44 magnum 240gr JHP. The 100gr+P round also has a nice wide flat meplat, so it will leave close to a full diameter hole, probably the same exact diamater as a hard cast lead .357 magnum would.
A deep .35 caliber hole is a deep .35 caliber hole, it really doesn't matter what caliber creates it.
Hard cast lead offers vastly superior performance vs soft lead bullets in both tactical barrier penetration and soft tissue performance.
So there would very much be uses for a .22LR hypervelocity supermax hardcast lead bullet. It would be an awesome survival or SHTF round for a .22 rifle.
Boomer58cal
New member
I'd like to try some SuperMax with full metal jackets.
I know my 240 grain Laser cast SWC's penetrate like crazy in my 44 mag. I haven't thought to check there BN but they're crazy hard.
Boomer
I know my 240 grain Laser cast SWC's penetrate like crazy in my 44 mag. I haven't thought to check there BN but they're crazy hard.
Boomer