Why My Flintlock Fires Every Time

no i follow you just fine .
the lock is a right hand lock thats placed on the left side of your gun . thus its turned backwards .

but if your were to take a left hand lock and place it backwards on the right hand side of your gun , it would be in the same place .

in your case however the lock , which started life as a right hand lock "becky" but is no longer much like the original but for the use of the lock plate which also has been cut down . it would have to face forwards and thus NOT be in the same place . just as you showed in your photo .

but if you had used a left hand lock . that lock could have been placed on the right hand side of your pistol and in fact been in the very same place .
the need for the lock to be on the left hand side was defined by your choice of lock , it not being avalable in left hand and your request for the lock to be placed on the left hand side .
i say that again as a reponse to
The reason is if you had it on the right side the lock would have to be moved
fauther foward.
Click to expand...



as to your frizzen
I think you may be misunderstanding me when I say drawn back .
There are two basic ways to make a frizzen , forging and casting . Well 3 if you want to include milling but that has its own concerns .

With forging the frizzen is brought to non magnetic temperature . This aligns the molecules. The part is then quenched . Which hardens the frizzen .. If its left that way and put to service , it will snap .
So the frizzen is drawn back to give it resilience . IE the toe , pivot lid and just a little up the back , are brought back to the blue stage , IE right around 700 degree give or take .
The frizzen face is controlled to the light straw color stage which is right around 400 , give or take .
Then let stand to cool

If it’s a cast frizzen , then depending on the type of metal used to cast , it may or may not be brought back to non magnetic . For the most part the frizzen’s that would be purchased from say L&R , Davis , Chambers are all cast and unless otherwise stated , are ready for use .

With Jims locks ( chambers) I have never had a frizzen that did not spark very well .
Davis and L&R often are to hard IMO . As such I use Bobs method of drawing by placing the frizzen in the oven at 350-400deg for 1 hour or until the frizzen face has a nice even straw color . Its let stand to cool .

Now what does this all have to do with your frizzen . Well if you look , its cased .
That can be done a couple ways , I wont go into that but to say its most times done at temps above 1560 and below 1700 if your intent is to impregnate carbon . The reason for that is that this is the temp that steel will absorb carbon and achieve very bright and long lasting colors . Which from what you say is probably how your frizzen was done .
These colors however are only surface deep . This is why lower temperature casing doesn’t last very long as it’s the temperature of the steel not the carbon burn off that’s giving the colors .
But with lower temperature casing , your drawing back the hardness as part of achieving the color.

With actual case hardening where carbon is being introduced to the part , the result is that the part will be to hard and break unless its drawn . But in base the part is being drawn by the act of casing
So lets say Larry used a casting or the original Davis Frizzen .. He then cased it to give it a higher carbon content .
On parts like lock plates , this makes for a very slick and smooth surface that parts slide across very well .
For your frizzen , it impregnated more carbon to the face . The amount depends on how much the original part had in it and how long it was kept at temp .

So understand drawing does not mean annealing . Your frizzen is still hard , the temper of the frizzen is just brought back to a point that it will be resilient and spark well ..
it’s a tried a true method that’s been used for centuries

im sorry if there was an misunderstanding.
I was just trying to explain for the sake of the others here who may like your pistol but do not want the lock on the left hand side
 
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In order to spark , the frizzen must be made of carbon type steel or it will not spark . That sir is a given .
However even carbon steel thats tempered to be to hard or to soft , will not spark . It can not spark if the steel is harder then your flint , amber , Agget or what have you. What ever you chose to use , must be able to cut small microscopic pieces of the frizzen as it strikes and do so in a way as to shear them off by friction , making them glow from the heat of that shearing action .. If the frizzen is to soft they will simply cut off . To hard and they will not shear .and create the heat needed .
Click to expand...

Microscopic particles of iron are pyrophoric and they are actually burning in the air. The friction ignites these microscopic particles but the real heat is from the steel burning in the oxygen of the air. Non pyrophoric metals do not make good frizzens, no matter how hard they are, they will not spark. Stainless steel and brass are bad frizzen materials for that reason.
 
Captchee wrote:
the lock is a right hand lock thats placed on the left side of your gun . thus its turned backwards.
Click to expand...

I thought that at first also. However, on second thought that is only because we have become conditioned to seeing MOST flintlocks to have a lock on the right or left side with the cock driving the flint forward towards the muzzle against the frizzen. Again, we have been CONDITIONED to think of that as being the "CORRECT" way for a lock to be positioned. Movies, reenactments, t.v. shows (Daniel Boone with Fess Parker) and a host of other things we have seen with flintlocks have conditioned us to PERCEIVE that as the norm, and any other positioning of the lock is naturally viewed by many of us as being "BACKWARDS". I was likewise guilty of that at first in this thread until I thought more about it.

Consider the wheel lock. Some wheel locks have the cock with the flint positioned forward of the wheel, in what we would think "LOOKS" backwards to us, because we don't see that many wheel locks in our lives compared to the more numerous flintlocks we see. But when that wheel lock was being built 400 or so years ago, did the gunsmith think it looked like the lock was "backwards" to him? No, of course not. Same thing is true of matchlocks that have the cock bringing the lit match cord to the rear rather than forward. Same is true of the snaphaunce, or any other type of ignition system. There is no "backwards" nor "forwards" nor "upside down" unless we PERCEIVE them that way through our societal mental conditioning.

It's all about PERCEPTION in our minds of what we have been conditioned to think of as "normal". Not reality. The reality is, whether the cock of a flintlock moves towards the muzzle, or whether it moves towards the butt of the rifle, either way is just a way to bring a spark to the priming pan and touch hole. Neither is right nor wrong and neither is "backwards", nor "forwards". To me nothing looks more "wrong" (in my conditioned mind) than an underhammer percussion rifle. It just totally LOOKS wrong and upside down to me. Why? Because I wasn't raised seeing that many of them either in shooting or in movies and t.v. and they just don't fit into my CONDITIONED mindset of what is quote "normal". Many underhammer rifles also have a lock that "appears" to be "backwards" (as well as upside down), in that the hammer falls towards the butt instead of the muzzle. So the entire view we hold in our minds is simply one of CONDITIONED PERCEPTION, and has no basis in reality.

Compared to Captchee and Kwhi, I know very little about all the intricacies of this or that flint style lock, this or that method of hardening the frizzen, "drawing" the frizzen" how to drill to maximize the touch hole for ignition, or any of the many things these two obviously both knowledgeable gentlemen are very educated on.

But I do know this, the proof of someone's theories, knowledge, actions and overall veracity "is in the pudding" as the old saying goes. To me when Kwhi said his wife has won the Flint Pistol Championship at Friendship a couple times, that certainly goes a long way towards verifying his knowledge, theories and overall veracity on the subject. (Or at least towards whoever built his flintlock pistol.)

Not to say Captchee isn't equally knowledgeable. But we have to give consideration and a bow to the fact that Kwhi's wife won the Flint Pistol Championship at Friendship several times. That's "proof of the pudding" that is undeniable.

I continue to enjoy reading this thread since although I know enough about flintlocks to load, prime and fire one (and have done so), I find from reading threads like this, that I actually know very little about the metallurgy and myriad intricate details necessary to make them very reliable as well as to increase their accuracy (like the position of the lock making the sight "bobble"). What this thread also does is give me a huge respect for the ancient masters of the craft forming a barrel by heating a flat piece of iron red hot and then beating it into a tube over a mandrel and hammer welding the edges together. Then their building an Archimedian screw apparatus that when pushed back and forth with a piece of a broken file on its end, would progressively rifle the barrel. Then with nothing more than a forge and a crucible, to case harden a lock by wrapping leather and charcoal around the lock (that they also created from scratch) and heating it to a temperature to case harden it, in times before heat gauges were invented. Amazing, just amazing. Astounding actually.

I saw a bit of that skill at the old colonial gunsmith/blacksmith shop in old Williamsburg Va on my trip there some years ago and would love to see more of that almost lost art.


.
 
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A lot of good info, but my first reaction to the "my flintlock fires every time" was "why shouldn't it?" A flintlock does not have to be made of some super materials by some hidden genius and be mounted backward in order to fire every time.

The problem is not that no one can make a good conventional flintlock, it is that too many of the locks on the market today are junk (because that is all most folks want to pay for).

Jim
 
having someone win an event , doesn’t necisserly mean the gun they used , was what won the event . A very good gun can be greatly handicapped by the shooter .
The opposite is also true where a very good shooter can make a sub standard gun truly shine.
Through the years I have seen many a CVA Kentucky stand above many high dollar customs even though the quality of that CVA isn’t there .

In this case it appears the gun is well built and must suit his wife well .
But I guarantee that if I shot it , it probably wouldn’t perform to well as im a horrible pistol shot ,LOL

A lock , be it flint or cap can be placed in any configuration needed so as to provide ignition . It doesn’t mater if its backwards , forwards or upside down , its only a source of ignition and as long as it provides that ignition then its good to go .
In comparison lets look at sight placement. I don’t know how many times people ask me where the sights are supposed to be placed on a gun .
The answer is ; where you can see them the best with as much spread as you can .

Historically the greatest number of these locks were not used this way . But then we are not talking about a historic gun . Thus the design demands the lock be fit in the reverse position . Also in doing so it benefit’s the balance . IE its not wrong , its in fact right for this gun . The only thing that’s wrong is in assuming that the gun could not have a lock placed on the right side .
 
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Here is one of the pistols with the lock mounted on the right side. The same
Lock is used on both pistols. The first one I had was with the lock on the right
Side. The fellow who makes these will put the lock on either side. Depends on
What the customer wants.

30b09a83592c9cf7d96baea096062b16.jpg
 
Kwhi, couldn't the builder have used a left handed lock on the right side, so that the cock fell towards the rear rather than towards the front? Why does the builder only use a right handed lock for both sides instead of also offering a left handed lock so you could mount the left handed lock with the cock falling to the rear,....like he did on the left side of your gun, but also do the same on the right side? Wouldn't that also stop your front sight from "bobbling" around by the cock falling rearward but on the right side using a left handed lock?




.
 
They don't make a lefthanded Beckey lock. Also when I had my other flint with the lock on the right side, it was lot harder to cock it back with my left
hand and prime it. I would have to go over the top of the pistol. It is a lot
easer to cock and knap the flint when you need to, and prime with it on the
left side . It is auckward for me to do all of this with the lock on the right side. I guess it's just what you get used to. At my age of 70, I want things
as easier as I can get them. I think Siler makes a small left handed lock.Not
sure tho, didn't look . Don't think Rob would make one with a Siler tho. Just
too big of a lock. Yazel does make a flint pistol with a small right handed
Siler lock mounted on the right side. Had one in my hand.Problem is with me
I have a "Ruger" Mark 11 " hand and the Yazel pistol is a S&W model 41 angle
just dosen't fit the wife's and my hands.
 
while its true that Davis doesnt make a left hand Becky i wonder why it is that he chooses to use that lock to start with .
yes its smaller then the small siler , but factually he changes the lock so much that its really a non issue .
i would think the siler could be cut down the same way or simply make his own lock plate based off of the Becky but use the small siler frizzen and cock.
Ironically , I have an apprentice currently working in my shop who wants to place the lock on his flintlock rifle , on the left side vs. the right even though he is right handed and is building the gun to be shot right handed .
For the life of me I cant give him a good answer as to why he shouldn’t , past it just wasn’t done .

I myself have shot many left handed rifles even though im right handed . I have never had an issue with the flash . I also know many left handed folks who shoot right handed guns , left handed and don’t have a problem .
So really possibly the real answer is that it all boils down to ( because that’s they way I wanted it )
 
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Yep, If you have enough money, anything can be done. Rob, makes a living
At this. He has no other job. So he has to make money. You ought to see some
Of his shotguns. I think he gets a good deal on the Beckey. Now if you call
Him and told him you wanted say a Chambers Siler cut down to the same size
As the Beckey, he could do it. Probably cost you 1500.00. But he could do it.
His work is pretty top notch . After the wife had won the Nationals a couple times, back about 1994, With a Cimmoron Lightning, Rob came to us and told
Me that I ought to think about buying her a good competition pistol. I looked
At him and said, I will, if I can find anybody good enough to make her one.
He didn't know if he was going to get mad or laugh. His jaw dropped and we
All just laughed. We have two of his pistols. My Flint cost 600.00 That was
Around 2002. He told me he made it too cheap, and he never would make
Another for that. I think the last price was 800.00. I told him to look at it this
Way, the wife is making you famous. Ha! We all have a good time.
 
Frizzen hardening

Captchee,

In reading yours and others post on this thread I noted that you are very knowledgeable about the process of hardening frizzens. I need help with, not one, but two L&R locks. Both are RPL's, which is why I had to go with them, and neither one will throw sparks worth a damn. I'm talking little bitty red sparks when you get any at all. I've tried everything that I know: many different types and sizes of flint, bevel up and down, polishing the face of the frizzen etc to no avail. Following advise from other forums I attempted to reharden one of them with no results. I heated it to cherry red, quenched in oil and then put in in a small oven for 1 hour at 350 degrees. The face still seams a little soft to me, my flint still leaves scratches but regardless - still no real sparks. It will produce a very small spark that clings to the end of the flint and glows for a fraction of a second. That's all.

In your post you mentioned that L&R frizzens are cast, I believe ,and required a different treatment but I wasn't sure which treatment and the method.

Would you mind giving me a run down on the proper steps to make those things throw sparks. I'm a builder, of sorts, and have been messing with rock locks for years but these have me stumped.

Many thanks and as a newbie to the forum I want to say I'm impressed by the depth of knowledge of you and the many other members.

Greyhawk.
 
If it was me, I would call Davis locks and have Larry Zorn do it. Cost you about
20.00 but it will be done right. He is one of the best.
 
good morning sorry to hear your having issues with your locks . its going to be rather hard at this point for me to recommend what to do as I don't know to what degree you have effected the frizzen . IE did the 350 bring the face up to straw color ?
did you heat the whole frizzen to a good cherry color or was it just the face ?????.........

but ill do my best here .

yes the frizzens are from castings . so are the ones from Davis and Chambers . most everyone uses castings these days .
1095 is used which is a carbon steel . IE the whole part is carbon steel not just the face .sounds to me as if your frizzens have been drawn back to far.
the spark tells the tail . red is low in hardness . orange/ yellow is medium and white is on the hard side.

normally because cast frizzens are made from high carbon steel , they will be to hard . this is where folks often suggest drawing them back a little in an oven .
but before one does that , they need to know if indeed the frizzen is to hard . to check that , run a file across the frizzen face . it should skate across and not dig in .
if it digs in and you can file the face , then its to soft and the frizzen must be re hardened . if it skates , then we can draw it back in an oven .

350 deg IMO is about as low as one wants to go heat wise . you said you placed them in an oven. did you have a secondary temperature source so as to insure that you were actually at 350 or better ? what often happens is that the temperature setting on the home ovens is not very accurate . it in fact can be way lower. Add into that , lets say you used a gas oven. the heat generated by gas differs depending on altitude. IE lets say your cooking a pizza at 3500 ft . the cook time will be longer then it is at say sea level as it takes longer for gas to bring the cook temperature up.
so how do we get around that . well we don't trust the temperature reading that we set the oven to . instead we must trust the color of the metal we are working with as it will tell us what temperature its really at .

so lets try that process first as it's the easiest .
if there are very deep gouges in your frizzen face then we need to address that . when I say deep , I do mean deep . having the face chattered or wash boarded isnt really all that much of an issue unless its so bad that the flint bounces across the face . I actually have frizzens on a couple of my personal rifles at are very wash boarded. the spark wonderfully and I still get 75-100 fall per flint on a regular base .
what you do need to do is clean up the face so that its bright . don't polish it . just run some sand paper on it until its clean and bright .

now place the frizzen in the oven at 350-400 deg. don't take it out until you see the face has started become a nice straw brown color.
that color is what we want . if it doesn't show up , turn you oven up because its not producing the heat you think it is . trust the color . it will start to turn when the part comes into that 350-400 range , hold it there for at least 1 hour. then turn the oven off and let the frizzen cool slowly .
now lets say the file digs in and your frizzen is to soft . drawing it back will do nothing but make the issue worse as the carbon molecules in the Frizzen have not or are no longer aligned. so we must re harden it so as to have a base to start from .

KNOW UP FRONT THAT THERE IS ALWAYS A CHANCE THAT A FRIZZEN CAN BREAK DURING THE HARDENING PROCESS

so , when you heated the frizzen to cherry red , did you heat the whole frizzen or just the face ?
if it was just the face then we shouldn't need to re harden the whole frizzen . if that's the case then I would start by taking the face of the frizzen back up to a good sherry red . hold that heat just to the point you start to see the back of the frizzen start to turn color .
now quench it in Oil . Oil is a must for 1095 . it reduces the chances of the frizzen shattering . for oil I use just standard motor oil . leave it in the oil tell its completely cool . once cool , try the file on the face again . the file should now skate across the face .
if it does then we are good . if it doesn't then you can try again by going higher with the heat to a bright red color . but be carful as the more color that's produce on the lid and back of the frizzen the greater chance you will have to draw those areas back .
ok so lets say the face now is hard and the file simply skates across.
now take your sand paper and clean up the face so that its once again bright in color . now place it into your oven at 350-400 . I use 400 myself but you can try 350 first . again leave it in there tell the face turns a straw color .. then maintain that heat for 1 hour . turn off the heat and let the part cool in the oven .

you should now have good spark . if not then IMo the frizzen is probably dead and a new one is in order
or you can try and re carbonize it .
which is often done with cheep inported locks but really should not be needed with 1095 IMO
 
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