Why My Flintlock Fires Every Time

[kwhi43]

Video regular and slow motion

Flintlock Pistol Firing the Pan

via McTube for YouTube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzBOKBGp_nk


If you notice the sparks just keep coming long after the flash is over. The picture
Posted here is after the flash .

I use just enough powder in the pan to cover the bottom of the pan. Priming
power is Swiss Null B

 

[maillemaker]

Ok, I give, why?

Steve

 

[kwhi43]

What makes you think that was an answer? It was a question.

 

[Bill Akins]

I'll bite. A better hardened frizzen? Or a bit oversize touch hole? Something different about the powder? Something to do with the lock being backwards?

I have a question. In the video it shows someone firing it with their right hand. Yet the lock is located on the left side of the pistol as if for a left handed person. Why did you build it like that if you aren't a lefty, or are you a lefty?

Because if shooting it right handed, the sparks would shower you more towards your face. That's the reason flintlocks have their locks on the right side for right handed shooters and the left side for leftys. True, in holding it out it would be further from your face than a flintlock rifle's lock, but still, why the lock on the left side?



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[kwhi43]

Well Bill I will answer you. I did not build the pistol. When I called and asked
Rob Lewis from Ohio if he would build me a Flint pistol, he asked me which side
I wanted the lock. He will build them either way. I told him that was a stupid question, of course I wanted it on the left side. I think he was testing me.
The reason is if you had it on the right side the lock would have to be moved
fauther foward. The edge of the flint would fall in front of the trigger finger.
What this causes is a bobble if you will of the whole pistol. I have dry fired
several flint pistols with the lock on the right side. On every one the front
sight will bobble when fired. This is very hard to control. That is to say, the
barrel dips down due to the hammer falling in front of the frigger guard. Now
on one like you see here the edge of the flint falls into the web of your hand.
There is no bobble. No dipping down of the barrel. Result: scores go up!
You are able to shoot a lot better. At the Nationals at Friendship In, you can't
handicap yourself. You need every thing you can get going for you. So that is
the reason, Accuracy plain and simple. When shooting you don't feel anything
from the lock this way. The lock sparks so well you get hot sparks on your
hand sometimes. They roll right down your arm. Look at the video in slow
motion and notice the spark hittig the paper towl under the butt of the gun.
This is what you get on your arm. I did not mean you were asking a stupid
question. You were asking a good question. Just that Rob new where to
mount the lock when he asked me. I have been shooting this pistol for about
10 years. It has won the Flint Pistol Championship at Friendship a couple
times. No not by me, but the wife. It is a 32 cal and we use "0" Buck and
14 grs Swiss powder for 1,000 fps. Chronographed. 5 fps spread between
shots for 10 shots. It shoots just as quick as my revolver.

Front of the barrel

 

[Bill Akins]

Very interesting. Thanks Kwhi. I learned something new that I had no clue about. I would never have thought about the placement of the lock on the right side causing the front sight to bobble. So that explains why the lock is on the left side as well as backwards. It's to get it clear of the trigger finger on the right side and also so it can be located more rearward for better balance. Got it.

Thanks again. That answered my question. But what about your question?

We still don't know the answer of WHY your flintlock fires every time. I get that it's custom built by a pro, and that the lock is balanced for maximum accuracy, but what about the function so that it fires every time. Are you going to explain that consistency for us?


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[kwhi43]

Well, the Frizzen is hardened using a method that no one else does. Sorry can't
tell you how. Lets just say IT SPARKS! I know how to prime a pan for the fastest
possiable firing. I make my own touch holes. I use Swiss Null B priming powder.
I use a very very hard flint from Rich Pierce here in Missouri. It is a form of
Chert. I really don't want to sound like a know it all, but all the vent liners on
The market today are made wrong. That's why I have to make my own. I was
Taught by a heavy Flint bench shooter and champion at Friendship 40 years ago.
The flint you see here has been used for the past year. Never been knapped.
Nothing ever been done to it. Just keeps on throwing sparks. Over 100 shots
On it and it just keeps going. Those are the things that makes my Flintlock fire
Every time. Plus I'm lucky!

Sorry I forgot there is no picture of the flint. Here it is

 

[Captchee]

Just a couple things .

having the lock on the right side isn’t going to change the position of the lock . IE move it forward
For your pistols design the lock would be in the very same position .
What would change is a left hand lock would have to be used . Which right now you have a right hand lock placed on the left side of your pistol . While some would consider the lock backwards , its actually correct for the design in that it takes into account the mechanical torque of the lock . IE its now inline with the grip , plus it brings it back close to the intersection of the centerlines of the grip and barrel and thus produce a better balance .
As to wobble . One of the reasons for this is that a lock generates torque which is then transferred into the stock .
Combined that with a right hand shooters tendency to pull the muzzle right as the pull the trigger often results in a side lock shooting right of actual POI . This tendency gets reduced slightly by the action of the lock on the left hand side ..
With that being said a persons style of shooting also plays a big part in that all of the above is often over come and the shooter doesn’t even know its happening .

As to how well the lock sparks .
a flintlock isn’t as simple in it design as a lot of people think .
A better lock will have proper geometry in its fall. the frizzen will also be in proper geometry for that fall . the springs will be matched so as to provide proper resistance between the frizzen and the cock . The frizzen will also have proper temper .

the temper of that frizzen is key to the amount of spark , but it’s a trade off . Today even with better quality locks , the temper is on the harder side . To the point that in my experience , its far more lily for a frizzen to be to hard then to soft .
This for the most part produces a longer lasting frizzen with adequate spark . but increases also flint wear .. While at the same time a frizzen that’s drawn back alittle more , will produce more spark , decrease flint wear but increase the wear on the frizzen .
But again proper geometry comes into play as a improperly aligned frizzen will eat flint regardless.

When I look at the photos of your lock , I can see the signs of the cock having been reworked . Probably to tune the geometry . I would also bet that the frizzen has been drawn to the point to produce the highest % of spark . The lock also looks to have been re cased . Thus I would bet the inside of the lock has a very good polish . All these things combined produces a faster lock time with a large amount of spark .

Also it would appear that from your photos , you have an rather large flash hole . Now granted this could be just the result of the angle the photo was take at or the way the image is shown on my screen .
But if it is true , then the result is better more reliable ignition of the main charge do to more of the main charge being exposed to the ignition of the pan charge . However this is also a trade of because the larger hole reduces barrel pressures as more pressure to be vented upon ignition.
Which isn’t really to much of an issue with a target type gun .

So overall it would appear at least to me that what you have is a pistol set up to produce all the desired result of your style of shooting to best ability one can .

The design of the gun and placement of the lock is about a more stable shooting platform , not about the reliability of the ignition of the gun itself though .

Rather nice piece though

 

[kwhi43]

My touchhole is .062 dia. I think the angle just makes it look big. This is a very
small lock. Actually it is a Davis Becky Lock. Yes the cock has been reworked.
There is nothing inside of the lock except the main spring. The lock works on
A cam. There is no half cock. No nothing. Just a quick downward movement of
the cock. You are incorrect about the Frizzen. I can only say it has not been
Annealed. It is glass hard. Has lots of carbon in it All of Rob's are like this. I have
Been shooting this for about 10 years now. Been fired thousands of times.
And yes moving the lock to the right side will change the location of it. I used
To have one of his pistols with the lock on the right side. He showed me one
Day when I was visiting with him how the location will change depending on
Which side it's mounted on. I like you didn't think it should change, but it does.
The difference between my vents and the others on the market is how I make
The inside. The ones you buy are conned on the inside with a taper going to
The hole. Mine are made straight sided with the bottom square. Thank you.
for your imput.

By changing the Frizzen and flint, the pistol can be converted to percussion

 

[Rifleman1776]

You have only partially alluded to why your lock sparks every time. It is still a flint lock and, by nature, will sometimes be finicky.

Well, the Frizzen is hardened using a method that no one else does. Sorry can't
tell you how. Lets just say IT SPARKS! I know how to prime a pan for the fastest
possiable firing. I make my own touch holes. I use Swiss Null B priming powder.
I use a very very hard flint from Rich Pierce here in Missouri. It is a form of
Chert

won't tell how it's hardened? Interesting, I thought the forum was for sharing and helping. Oh, well.
Yes, I have seen those 'backwards' pistols at Friendship and elsewhere. Just a theory, IMHO.
BTW, chert is flint. Flint and chert can be found in varying qualities. What Rich Pierce made is good stuff. He doesn't make gun flints anymore. Unfortunate.
What Capchtee said is good info.
You think your liners are better than anyone elses? OK, that's nice, I guess. You are insulting some very fine ml gunsmiths but doing it yourself is to be commended.
Is your buckshot ball patched? If not, I have to wonder if you complying with NMLRA rules when competing. Just wondering, I haven't read pistol rules in a long time. They may have changed to permit non-patched ball. I really dunno, worth reviewing.

 

[kwhi43]

Yes the buckshot is patched with .010 thick material. Yes I do follow the rules.
Yes I do comply with NMLRA rules. I shot there last month. All the range masters know me. Ken Berstine the barrel maker and slug gun shooter taught
Me how to make the vent liners. He is very well know at Friendship. The late
Webb Terry used them as well. They are not my design , I just make them,
And they work. If you have any complaints or concerns on how I shoot I would
suggest you take it up with the range masters at the NMLRA.

 

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

I tried to buy some of Mr. Pierce's flint a year or so ago. Was told his "other activity's take up too much of his time for him to bother with chert hunting." {I only emailed him that one time.} Never bothered to try again. {couldn't even if I wanted too.} Lost Mr. Pierce's Email address when my other computer's H.D. crashed. Those who acquired some of Mr. Pierce's flints are indeed lucky.

S/S

 

[kwhi43]

I feel very lucky to have 100 of them. They are the small size 1/2 inch for
my little Becky lock.

 

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

That is indeed a neat little pistol. I have stripped ground gofers here in my back yard. It would be fun to sit out on the deck some evening with a pistol like that throwing some lead at those dog teasing little fellers. Do the same now with a scoped 22 and CB caps. But the rifle doesn't offer much of a challenge. Where as a little B/P pistol like that one you have would no doubt. Thanks for posting those pictures Sir. And I've enjoyed your comments also.

S/S

 

[Bill Akins]

I also appreciate your posting this as well as other posts in this thread. I've learned a few things about flintlocks I didn't know. And that's what this forum is all about.


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[kwhi43]

Thanks Bill

 

[Rifleman1776]

I juist asked. Asked about patching the buckshot balls because they are harder than pure lead and might not lend themselves to patching.
So, the touchholes are not your design. Your words were confusing on that point. If Webb Terry liked them, they must be excellent.
So, please share your frizzen hardening technique.

 

[Captchee]

My touchhole is .062 dia. I think the angle just makes it look big.

so you have a 1/16 flash hole

Actually it is a Davis Becky Lock. Yes the cock has been reworked.
There is nothing inside of the lock except the main spring. The lock works on
A cam. There is no half cock. No nothing. Just a quick downward movement of
the cock.

I am somewhat familure with the becky lock and how it works
in this photo on the right is the davis becky , on the left is a left hand becky in the process of being built for a .410 SXS aplication . Davis doesnt make a left hand becky , i do .

I would also point out that if your lock does not have a 1/2 cock , then the tumbler or cam as you call it , has eather been changed or modified .
the Davis Becky has both a half cock and a fly so that it will work with set triggers .

You are incorrect about the Frizzen. I can only say it has not been
Annealed. It is glass hard. Has lots of carbon in it

In order to spark , the frizzen must be made of carbon type steel or it will not spark . That sir is a given .
However even carbon steel thats tempered to be to hard or to soft , will not spark . It can not spark if the steel is harder then your flint , amber , Agget or what have you. What ever you chose to use , must be able to cut small microscopic pieces of the frizzen as it strikes and do so in a way as to shear them off by friction , making them glow from the heat of that shearing action .. If the frizzen is to soft they will simply cut off . To hard and they will not shear .and create the heat needed .
So while you say your frizzen is glass hard , its in fact been brought back from the hardening temper so that ist face is at a temperature less then 650-700 degrees . That ranges is defined by the material used in making the frizzen .
this is why some locks spark better with a given type of rock . IE some locks will spark better with amber then english flint or in the case of Agget wich sparks well in harder frizzens but in turn ofte eat up a softer frizzen .

Your sparks are not hot pieces of your rock , they are small microscopic pieces off of your frizzen .
while i would agree that the amount of spark from your lock is impressive , i would also say that its a sign of a quality lock thats properly tuned and a frizzen brought down to a level that produce a large quantity of sparks .

I have
Been shooting this for about 10 years now. Been fired thousands of times.

well good to hear. i have a rifle made by HH back in the early 70's so probably 10's of thousands of falls and also works wonderfuly
a good flintlock is a real pleasure to shoot .

And yes moving the lock to the right side will change the location of it. I used
To have one of his pistols with the lock on the right side. He showed me one
Day when I was visiting with him how the location will change depending on
Which side it's mounted on. I like you didn't think it should change, but it does.

ok , well , your going to have to show me how and why the lock would be in a different position when installed on the right side of the gun and put on backwards , which would mean a left hand lock must be put on the right side ..
The lock position is defined by the vent location . Unless for some reason you change that location when installed on the right gun , the lock has to be in the same place which then makes the trigger also be in the same place as that position is defined by the location of the sear ..

You say the lock is a Davis Becky. Since Davis doesn’t make a left hand Becky then placing your lock on the right side would move it forward as it must be installed the other way as it would be a right hand lock placed on the right hand side .
However again if a left handed lock was used for the right hand side , that lock would be placed in the VERY same location ..

so again as i said in my last post IF you used a left hand lock it would be place on your guns design, on the right hand siode , in the very same location

The difference between my vents and the others on the market is how I make
The inside. The ones you buy are conned on the inside with a taper going to
The hole. Mine are made straight sided with the bottom square

what you describe is a liner with a strait drilled flash hole . Its not new and in fact is common on none liner guns . Many of which while not having a liner , also have the inside of the barrel coned in the area of the flash hole so as to reduce the distance the flash must travel to the main charge . ..
There is much debate as to if one way is better then the other .
SomeVery well known makers even say that having a liner is dangerous .
With that in mind , since you say yours has strait sides , is it then safe to assume that you install it correctly in that you don’t have a treaded hole all the way through your barrel wall , thus providing a face for the liner to seat against since it cant be seated from the out side of the barrel.
IE you cant simply screw your liner all the way through to the point it falls into the bore .
That debate on if doing that is safe or correct , however a subject for another day . The simply fact is what you describe as your liner , has for a very long time been used to repair barrel that’s drilled flash hole has burn out to the point the flash hole is to large . IE a blank liner is made and the flash hole drilled .

what the advent of the liner did was to is provide a harder material then the barrel material , so as to reduce gas cutting IE flash hole enlargement..

So by your statement , what your saying is that you believe or side on the belief that the heat , pressure and flame from the main charge, travels as quick or quicker over the distance of a barrel walls thickness , then it will travel over 1/32 or 1/64 . that if it is not faster , then the ignition happens so fast that its not desernable by the shooter .

OR are you saying that a strait drilled flash hole is less subject to fouling then an improved designed flash hole ?

Thank you.
for your imput.

your welcome

 

[kwhi43]

I think we have a mis-understanding. First my lock is a Becky right handed
Lock bought from Tim at Davis. It was designed by Peter Allen of which I know.
He named it after his daughter from which he had made her a rifle. I have
Known Pete for over 40 yrs. just because a lock is mounted on the left side does
Not make it a left handed lock. It is still a right handed lock. And Davis makes
Them. When I say I drill the hole in the vents, I am talking about the one on
The inside of the barrel. The one that holds some of the main powder charge.
I don't know if you know him or not but talk to Larry Zorn about frizzens. Mine
Was done by Rob Lewis, who made my pistol. I can assure you it was not drawn
Back . It just took some pictures of my lock off the pistol. Here you can see
The inside. Sorry I don't always express exactly what I mean. Can only blame
It on old age. Here is a picture if it was mounted on the right side. The touch
Hole is back behind the grip. The edge of the flint would be in front of my trigger
Finger. Not good.

 

[kwhi43]

Last Two Pictures