Why magnums for USA, if AK Fish & Game say 30-06 enough?

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When it comes to large predators, I would much rather err on the side of more gun than too little gun. I would also rather err on the side of shooting what I decide is appropriate for me. How AK F&G wants to outfit their people is there business. How I outfit me is my business.
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No one is saying otherwise.

They also work.

Reality is for every guide and game taken, a thousand Alaskan's do it per normal individual or group hunting.

I have yet to hear of a bear attack someone packing a rifle made a successful shot.

Two factors, time and ability to stay calm.

If you can shoot the magnum then its better than an 06 you can't.

Scandinavia uses 6.5 for most of their hunting and they do fine.

People who can't shoot what they bring is the bane to a guides existence, but they get paid for it.

60 some years and I never had a run in with Grizzly bear (and one black bear that was my fault).

If you need a 375 H&H to feel safe then you should not be out there, guided or not.
 
Scandinavia uses 6.5 for most of their hunting and they do fine.
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It's about time to put that myth to bed. While the 6.5X55 was very popular for many years due to military surplus rifles and ammunition availability, 308, 30-06, 7X64, 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Mag are much more popular these days since military rifles and surplus ammo, the very thing that made the 6.5X55 popular, are mostly in .308/7.62X51 these days and most of the older 6.5X55 surplus ammo has dried up. Besides, their animals are much smaller, their moose average about 300-400 lbs, where an Alaska moose will got 800-1200 lbs.
People who can't shoot what they bring is the bane to a guides existence
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This is true.
 
Logs said:
Here are my two shots with 7mm Mag behind shoulder. I would say my placement was pretty good.

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Very good placement in deed, well done .
 
Scorch said:
It's about time to put that myth to bed. While the 6.5X55 was very popular for many years due to military surplus rifles and ammunition availability, 308, 30-06, 7X64, 7mm Rem Mag, 300 Mag are much more popular these days since military rifles and surplus ammo, the very thing that made the 6.5X55 popular, are mostly in .308/7.62X51 these days and most of the older 6.5X55 surplus ammo has dried up. Besides, their animals are much smaller, their moose average about 300-400 lbs, where an Alaska moose will got 800-1200 lbs.

This is true.
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What is your source for this claim when it comes to rifle caliber popularity ?
Do you live/hunt there ?
 
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I found this written by an actual hunter from Sweden back in 2007 and it looks like the 06 was the most popular for moose where the study was done. However, there is no mention of other scandinavian countries. I've trimmed it down some but you can read the whole thing by using the link.

Henrik said:
Hello,
I'm a Swede that has been shooting and hunting in Sweden for 20+ years now and during that time I've seen some changes in the preferences of my fellow swedish hunters.

First of all it's important to understand that there's some major differences between different parts of my country. In the southern parts of our Sweden there�s a lot of deer hunting as well as boar and moose hunting, whereas the nortern parts has a lot lees deer and boars but they do have good moose hunting as well as bears (at least in some areas). I do believe that the average hunter in the southern parts spend a lot more money on his (or her) hunting equipment compared to hunters in the north. The leases for hunting areas are also more expensive in the southern parts of the country.

Our choce of chamering might differ from your "Joe Average" as we tend to put less faith in speed and the magnums are not as popular here as I get the impression that they are in the US. We have also seen a trend where 6.5x55 is losing in popularity (at least in sales of new guns) and what used to be "the big three" 30-06, 308 win and 6.5x55 are now dominated bu the first two rounds.

Fortunately we have a tendency to document and analyze everything in our country which means that there's at least some official statistics available. I have two different documents available, the first one where are the statistics regarding 8760 mooses.

Code: 
Chambering,   Number of mooses,   Meters traveled,   Cartridges/Moose
30/06   	2849	              47	     1,57
6.5x55	        2792	              43	     1,57
308 win	        1314	              41	     1,67
8x57 IS	        575	              57	     1,53
9.3x62	        449	              34	     1,50
358 Norma	219	              19	     1,16
375 H&H	        211	              31	     1,33
9.3x57	        134	              41	     1,50
7mm Rem	        107	              40	     1,32
338 WM	        83	              31	     1,20
300 WM	        27	              16	     1,83
			
Total/ Average	8760	              43	     1,56

The second document is regarding 6167 mooses shot in an area in northern Sweden between 1990 and 1997. I will try to explain the figures first, eg

30-06 1938 1.5 43 this means that there where 1938 mooses shot with a 30-06 each moose took an average of 1.5 shots to go down and the average moose travelled 43 meters after the shot. So here come the figures:
Code: 
30-06		1938	1.5	43
6.5x55		1717	1.5	41
308 Win	        943	1.7	38
9.3x62		306	1.4	36
375 H&H	        265	1.4	30
8x57		265	1.5	50
358 NM	        192	1.2	36
9.3x57		150	1.5	35
338 Win	        111	1.5	31
7 mm RM	        75	1.4	47
8x64		25	1.2	32
300 Mag	        25	1.9	24
458 Win	        18	1.3	18
7x64		18	1.4	43
416 Taylor	17	1.3	27
8x68S 		12	1.4	40
8x60		9	1.1 	4
270 Win	        7	1.4	64
9.3x74R	        7	1.2	32
9.3x64		5	1.6	50
460 Wby		3	1.3	70
9.3x72		1	1.0	0
Unknown	58

Obviously the chamberings at the bottom of the list are only used by one or maybe two shooters and the statistics tell us more about their shooting abilities then it does about their choosen gun.
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Two years ago, I ran a target for my club's hunter sight-in, abut 3-ish and senior gentleman rolled up to sight-in a 7mmMag, [as he in twenty years of trying pulled a Michigan tag}], he had full box of Federal 175grainers, by the ten round he had a SEVERE flinch. I rolled an sweatshirt in to a pad did some good but not much.

I suggested either get a lower weight bullet and come back or if he had an, 06 or .308 use that. I also mentioned to try using differt powder to make a 7X57 muaser to get a better placement..

He thought about it and indicated he would try the following week-end at another club to get sighted.

Never heard what happened?

Go for the shot placement, is best.
 
There's another way to look at this I would offer up: The trend in modern firearms seems to be toward ultralight firearms. This has, IMO, resulted in "down-niche" cartridges like the 6.5 creedmoor which achieve similar flat trajectories as the traditional "big boy magnums" but at much less felt recoil--in lighter weight rifles. I personally feel a 9 lb rifle is perfectly acceptable for me to haul around and thus the bigger magnum cartridges aren't nearly as punishing as they would be in a modern light-as-a-feather carbon fiber space-laser rifle.
 
Guide Phil Shoemaker often uses a 30-06 as his rifle to back up clients. With a heavy Partition, it will solve problems. I never have had a magnum rifle (not counting 22 and 44) When I lived in Kodiak I used a 30 and 35-06 and a 45-70, certain in the knowledge that if I did my job, they would do theirs.

I often hunted in remote areas with a 243. I had heard the warnings that bears come running to the sound of a shot. That didn't pass my sniff test. All wild animals learn that gunfire means danger and their survival instincts keep them away. If they came running to the sound of the shot, then guides would use a gun shot as a bear call. I am not saying it hasn't happened, I am saying that it is extraordinarily rare. So rare that it's not worth fretting over.

Bullets and placement matter way more than anything else.
 
I don't usually join magnum basher threads, but I had to look up Phil Shoemaker. According to an article in Guns magazine, his daughter Tia has followed in his footsteps. The article pictures her with a very big bear and her "old" rifle, a 375 Ruger. Also shows her new rifle, a Model 70 that her dad gave her and she customized. This one is in 416 Remington Magnum, modified to make it handier in the thick stuff and lighter to carry all day (8 lb!). She loads (or her Dad does for her) Barnes 300 TSX.

That was particularly interesting to me, as I started developing a load for this bullet last fall. From my 24" M70, the start load goes 2,677/4.6 Std and delivers excellent accuracy. Tia's custom carries a 21" barrel, and the article did not mention it's ballistics. Max load in mine should go about 2,800.
 
I have been to Alaska. In a department store they had a full life size Grizzly taxidermy mount. It stood 8 feet tall and looked to weighed a half ton.
I have hiked in Alaska with my wildlife biologist brother, and when he got a whiff of severe bear stink-ass, we made a tactical retreat. Even in Northern California, 30-06 or bigger is a necessay hikung item, and those are for black bear.
Sure, you can kill an elephant with 30-06, if you shoot it enough times. But in heavy brush, against an unsuspected goliathian creature, you may only get one shot, or become bear poo poo. Any first aid will be hours away.
Savage makes a short barreled stainless steel guide gun with iron sights in a couple of calibers 338 , 375 Ruger. Take a tip from the boy scouts and Be prepared.
 
eastbank said:
what it tells me is that any of the calibers shown with proper bullets will kill them if the shot is placed right.
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It was just to show that other cartridges than the 6.5X55 are being used in Sweden and other Scandinavian countries.

Dranrab said:
Guide Phil Shoemaker often uses a 30-06 as his rifle to back up clients. With a heavy Partition, it will solve problems.
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While I'll agree Phil Shoemaker is a big proponent of the .30-06 being big bear capable, I don't think it is his cartridge of choice anymore. He's used a lot of different cartridges over the years but I think from what I've read he has used the .458 Win Mag the most.
 
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"there are varified accounts of bears killing hunters on kodeack iland while gutting deer they shot."

I was involved in several dozen kills when I was there. It never happened to me. I spoke with a lot of people who had lived and hunted the Island for many years. I never met anyone it happened to. It's mostly urban legend. Certainly not common. Bears tend to learn that being near people with guns is bad for their health.
 
Urban legend

I'm going to politely disagree with you Danrab.

In Montana this is not considered an urban legend. It's been awhile since I actually read about this. I had heard associates talking about Grizzly bears beating hunters to their kill.

It was 2008, when there were 8 reports of hunters attacked by grizzly. One of these was the Deputy Director of the Department of Parks, Wildlife and Fisheries. All were injured, but there was only one fatality. Only the presence of other hunters nearby prevented this from being worse.

I agree that most animals in the wild, subject to hunting pressure will flee at the sound of gunfire. A very experienced and colorful associate said he believed that Montana grizzly were meaner and more dangerous than Alaskan grizzly because our grizzly didn't have big ol' juicy salmon jumping into their mouths. But rather had to roll a thousand pound boulder to get a handful of bugs and if they were lucky a mouse.

I have to believe that the Grizzly bear considers itself the top of the food chain, and it only takes a step back to a larger bear. If it weren't for modern firearms or an organized hunting parties with lances and such, humans would be helpless before them.

So, in the bears mind if fresh meat falls dead before them it's theirs. I think everyone will agree that grizzlies will attack immediately if their young are threatened, or you interrupt their meal.

Apparently these bear in Montana have been conditioned to respond to the sound of gunfire. I have a feeling that they would hear gunfire, then just stumble on the gut pile and get an easy meal. Bears are said to learn fast. If the bear comes upon the kill first it's his.

I am more of a shooter than a hunter. The hunting that I have done, I did with a 300WBY. I only hunted mule deer and had excellent success. I never had to track an animal or take a second shot. I was alone and unaware then of any bear threat other than random contact. I also carried a stainless Super Blackhawk, 44mag. Mainly for comfort, I guess, because if a 30-06 isn't suitable to stop a charge, a 44mag isn't going to do it either. It is said by some that a 300WBY will stop a charge if you can calmly make a kill shot at a charging bear.

I'm curious if anyone else considers inland bears more dangerous than those lazy fat bears chillin' in a stream waiting for a nice juicy salmon to leap into his mouth.
 
there are varified accounts of bears killing hunters on kodeack iland while gutting deer they shot.
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There are accounts of Grizzly bears taking a kill away from a hunter, none I know of where the hunter was attacked or killed. Smart hunters walk away.

All accounts I know of that came on sudden, the shooter missed or dropped his gun.


I have to believe that the Grizzly bear considers itself the top of the food chain, and it only takes a step back to a larger bear. If it weren't for modern firearms or an organized hunting parties with lances and such, humans would be helpless before them.
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A Grizzly bear does not consider anything, its a walking mound of instinct and reflexes that react to any given situation. When small they run, when full size they fight with other bears and are predatory.

Louis and Clark has a number of encounters with Grizzly bears and they survived, the Native Americans thrived in that environment before there were guns.

The reason guides are successful. with clients is they hunt the bear and shoot it from a distance.

You stand no chance of aiming let alone a good shot against one that charges you out of the bush. None, nada, zip. Hunters have zero experience with a charge let alone controlling a gun correctly during one (African hunters tend do have some and the PI always)

Equally your best chance is to play dead (see caveat) or bear spray.

Its amazing how expert people are who never have been to Alaska let alone lived in or hunted and camped in the boonies.

All Grizzly bears are equally dangerous be they interior or exterior. There are NO FISH 8 months of the year (maybe 9 even).

The only thing that will stop a Grizzly in its tracks is a 20 mm cannot. A 50 cal would do it if you are behind armor.

A 300 WBY has zero improvement over an 06 at 050 yards. The bullet might make a difference if it penetrates and or breaks down a limb bone.

Surveying we carried shotguns (if anything, surveyed 99% time without one). The idea was 4 load of 00 Buck to shred its head (remove sensory apparatus ) one slug to kill it one it was pinned in position (even if that was not fast)

Been there, done that, got a T shirt every day, year in year out so I have boxes of them for 66 years. Never had a Grizzly encounter. Seen them, yep. They went their way and I went mine.
 
There are accounts of Grizzly bears taking a kill away from a hunter, none I know of where the hunter was attacked or killed. Smart hunters walk away.
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Some didn't have a lot of time...
https://www.eastidahonews.com/2018/09/missing-elk-hunter-found-dead-teton-county-wyoming/
https://nypost.com/2020/09/25/hunter-killed-by-grizzly-in-alaska-died-in-surprise-attack/

These guys attacked while packing out meat... https://lmtribune.com/nation/world/...cle_3eecf498-ead3-5462-937a-22d5df7c8d69.html

Killed while packing out meat...
https://lmtribune.com/nation/world/...cle_3eecf498-ead3-5462-937a-22d5df7c8d69.html

Hunter attacked by Grizzly while being next to the carcass of another...
https://www.ocregister.com/2007/04/18/alaska-hunter-survives-grizzly-attack-with-help-from-partner/

And specifically from Kodiak Island...
https://www.outdoorlife.com/photos/...while,grew up on a dairy farm in Pennsylvania.

Sutton, 31 at the time, shot a Sitka doe, field dressed it, then dragged it down the mountain side. When he was maybe 100 yards from the shoreline, a young Kodiak bear burst through the brush. At first, "I thought it was just a bluff charge," says Sutton. "It took it maybe a second, and it closed the distance about halfway. He jumped once more, came right through the air, and he was on me."
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