Why Law enforcement embraces smoothbores?

I thought about this forum during the past couple hours standing by waiting to see if I would get a green light to go help my neighboring county law enforcement officers as they were facing a man holed up in a garage with a fillet knife and a Mauser. The crack of the Mauser could be heard repeatedly over the airwaves as they communicated with each other. What a helpless feeling that is, knowing your friends are in real danger and not having permission to go help them out

Maybe in Miami you have SWAT minutes away for situations like this. Out here in the middle of nowhere we don’t have that luxury. It is on us to control or contain these situations, because SWAT is literally hours away.

When I first accepted this job I knew that the closest thing to SWAT was going to be me, myself, and I. When I say that, I mean no offense to my brothers and sisters that are real SWAT members, and I am not puffing myself up to be anything more than a patrol officer. I think having an AR15 is okay for those of us that are the first and possibly the last line of defense for the citizens we protect.
 
ALL of the police agencies in my county have gone to .223 caliber rifles in the last 5 years EXCEPT the County Sheriff's Department, and they'll switch over too if/when they can get a grant to buy rifles.(Most have AR-15s of various brands. Three agencies that I know of bought Ruger Mini-14s, and two of them have had function problems with the guns and wish they had purchased AR-15s to begin with . . . )

It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with "the militarization of the police" and never has. The issue is that an AR-15 or Mini-14 recoils less than a shotgun and has better point accuracy than a shotgun with slugs (under most circumstances). Also, those rifles are auto-loaders fed by a magazine, just like the officer's handguns, so there is a commonality of training issue.

Also, if you buy an M4 clone, it will have an adjustable stock that can be adjusted to fit smaller officers or officers wearing heavy winter coats or hard armor. The "as-issued" M870 needed to have the stock cut down by a couple inches to fit smaller personnel, so they could mount the gun properly. Another issue with smaller personnel (females) is that their arms are often not long enough to cycle the slide action of a shotgun with any strength.

The Gunshop Commandos always want to trade stories of the inabilities of the police. Of course, there is a lot of truth in some of those stories, but you can't make generalizations agency to agency because there is so much variation in hiring standards and how much in-service training they get. And most of these goofs who trade these stories at the gun shop have no idea what they're talking about, they're just repeating stories their friend told them in the bar on Saturday night . . . .

If you're really curious, actually ask a local cop how much training he got in the Academy (most states its about 40 hours and 1000 rounds) and how often and how much they shoot in in-service training (minumum standards for that are set by most states and some of that stuff is accessible on the net) which varies ENORMOUSLY.

Most of the agencies around here gave their officers 3 days of training and expended 500 or 600 rounds during the transition training for the rifle. Some of the smaller agencies with the limited budgets did it in one day and shot 300 rounds (I don't think that was enough, but I got hired to train a bunch of them, and they only wanted to spend the money for one day of training).
 
Boy did this thread get way off topic. What training a LE agency gets is the bare minimum to keep said agency from being sued :barf:. Any further training is up to the individual officer. The Officers that take the time to post on these sites ary generally firearm affecionado's, and are more aware officers. I personally shoot quite a lot. To get back on subject in the right hands within the shotguns limitations it is an awesome tool. I was raised on 870's and have used them and AR's in the Military and LE for 26 years. just because someone was in the military does not mean squat about weapons handling skills. I was an MP. How many vets ever admitt that they were the company clerk or a cook and only saw an M-16 during basic?? I personally do not like ghost ring sights on shotguns, they cover up too much. I shot my friends Benelli super 90 last summer in a match WOW... 15 shots on target in three stages(no reloads on the clock) in 6.8 seconds. My next shotgun is going to be a Benelli. As far as AD/ND I have seen them with every type of gun you can imagine, usually its one of those DOH moments that can happen to anybody.
 
I personally do not like ghost ring sights on shotguns, they cover up too much.

I couldn't agree more, but that's because we were both raised with shotguns. I find my groups with slugs during qualification smaller when I'm using my own shotgun with a single bead than with the ghost rings. But, when you take someone how has never shot a shotgun other than qualification, I can see the arguement for the ghost ring sights. It's much easier to teach them to shoot having two points to align then to try to teach them to naturally point and put the bead on the target.

That said, I'll never own a shotgun with sights on it.
 
I grew up wingshooting, so I know how to use a bead, or a set of beads, preferably. I still prefer Ghost rings on a combat shotgun. I can qualify 100% with a bead, with slugs or buckshot, but I still prefer a set of GR sights. Much easier to shoot slugs accurately, plus I greatly prefer the adjustability.

I , myself, am a great shotgun fan. I like accurate slug guns. I carry mothing bu 1oz slugs, and like to practice with them at 50, 75, and 100 yds. Works great for me. That being said, I think every patrol car should have a shotgun and an AR in it.
 
back to shotguns . . .

I have a fixed stock with a pistol grip on my personal M870. I always preferred that configuration over a conventional shotgun stock, probably because I shot AR-15s & M-16s a lot before I did much shooting with a shotgun. That particular stock configuration just pointed better and felt better to me . . .

I have always also preferred rifle sights or ghost ring sights on the shotgun. One of the barrels for my M870 has Ashley Express sights on them. I got the version with the big tritium dot on the front sight, and found I liked that particular sight variation even better than a ghost ring. The Express sights are excellent, and I'm a little surprised they aren't more popular.

I have a "side saddle" shell carrier mounted on the side of the receiver. I keep the gun loaded with buckshot and keep slugs in the shell carrier.

The "average" M870 stock is about 2 inches too long for shorter statured shooters. Cutting the stock off a little bit is worth considering if you have smaller sized operators, because a shorter stock will allow them to mount the gun properly. (This is pretty self-explainatory, but I was NEVER able to convince the administration of any of the departments I worked for full and part time to shorten the stocks on any of the guns. I also couldn't convince them to get SureFire lights integral with the fore-end or put decent sights on the guns)

Reduced recoil buckshot & slugs are probably indicated for general issue use because so many people are recoil sensitive. (Having a gun with a stock too long accentuates the recoil as well) Some of the tests I've seen also show that reduced recoil buckshot often groups tighter at close range, and I think that's worth consideration if that's how it patterns in your guns.

A number of years ago we did patterning tests on IPSC cardboard targets with 00 buckshot at 5,10,15,20 and 25 yards, just to show officers what they could expect in terms of pattern performance. This was quite a shock to some of these guys -- some thought the pattern would be much tighter at 25 yards and others were dismayed how tight the pattern was in close. Apparently they believed that all they had to do was point the shotgun in the general direction of the bad guy and pull the trigger and everything would be better.

(Gotta' remember, the "average" cop and the "average" shooter are probably not as experienced or trained as MANY (but not all . . . ) of the people who post on this forum, and stuff we take for granted, stuff we learned 15 or 20 or 25 years ago, is new information to them . . . )

(as another aside, 2/3rds scale "pepper poppers" are my favorite targets for pistols and for shotguns using buckshot)
 
First of all let me just say all my opinions are based on only a few years of simple range shooting and back yard plinking.....

I love my winny 12ga defender, I think I would feel safe with it in my grasp in just about any situation. HOWEVER, from my experience, at longer ranges (maybe 75+ yards) I can hit something as small as a soda can 10 times (maximum allowed in cali :P) in about 2.5 seconds with my ruger mini 14. I don't know much about AR's but from what I understand they also shoot the .223 caliber (I would only imagine the LE AR's would be even more accurate). I don't care if the BG is wearing full body armor, there's no way you can keep firing after you've taken ten .223 rounds to the head. Granted, it's a HS situation and you may not have superb accuracy, that's still gonna be about 5 rounds or so even to the most basically trained shooter. Should my neighborhood ever get invaded by some rebel forces or taken over by zombies, I'm gonna go straight for my ruger then my roof... maybe a 30-06 or .308 for when I see them on the horizon :D
If the enemy is close enough to where a 12ga would be effective, they would probably have already blown me to hell with an rpg or something. If somehow I was alive in a short range situation I would probably use my 1911 anyway because a shot in the head with a .45 is just as devistating as a slug or buck, and comparable accuracy, either way, whatever your shooting at will cease to function on this planet as a living being.

Also, all you shotgun lovers, DON'T get me wrong, my shotgun is weapon of choice for problematic home appliances (aswell as relieving stress). You should know that I basically keep one hand on it when I sleep, and one eye on it when Im awake. If I were ever sitting in my house and there came a time to use a firearm strictly indoors, the shotgun would definately be put to use.

(PLEASE NOTE NONE OF WHAT I SAID SHOULD BE TAKEN AS ADVICE NOR JUDGMENT... IT IS SIMPLY WHAT I IMAGINE WOULD HAPPEN IN MY SITUATION AND LOCATION, ASWELL AS MY SHOOTING CAPABILITIES, BASED ON ONLY A COUPLE YEARS OF PLINKING/NO REAL HIGH STRESS SITUATIONS)


R.I.P. Dev
 
43061

Sorry- i did not mean to cause upset. And I was not commenting upon YOUR professionalism.

As I said in my answer it comes down to training- and I think some military training could be a disadvantage in a Police officer. A well experienced ex soldier / who is now a cop is probably going to talk his way out of a lot of situations and use his brain first.

Unfortunately though when looking at policy you need to consider the lowest common denomenator. Guys who are in tactical units within the Police force are not a concern in this regard- they are very well trained- I am more concerned about for example a Soldier/ war veteran who decides to leave the army and go into the Police force. He needs more than general duties training to un-learn much that he has learned in the military about how to handle situations and use of deadly force.
 
Veteran to Police Officer

I usually stay away from topics of this subject matter. After scimming the threads, I want to put mu 2 cents in for my fellow veterans who are now my brothers in blue. Many of the comments are generalized statements that strike a nerve with us that serve the CIVILIAN community.
First, I am a 14 year Navy MP veteran. Yes, dealing with drunken sailors overseas and breaking up brawls is quite different than dealing with the civilian community. Seven years ago I decided enough was enough and joined the city police department. I, along with about my whole class of 40 cadets were veterans. The 27 week academy was para-military and much more harsh than any bootcamp. We had all branches represented (even the Coast Guard). The military training helps in dealing with high physical and emotional stress so an officer won't bash someones face in when the civilian is a butthead.
It all comes down to officer training and individual training, along with experience that makes a cop a good cop. I had my share of difficult times over the years dealing with the civilian community.
Second, I agree that being a veteran doesn't make you a SWAT SP guy. Training makes you efficient and most of the time it's up to the individual officer to take it upon himself to go to the range a few times a month a shoot. If I only relied on the city supplying me with the costs of bullets and paying more extra training BECAUSE THE CIVILIAN COMMUNITY DOESNT WANT TO SPEND THE MONEY, I will use my peronal time and money if I have it. Not only do I, and along with my brothers and sisters in uniform care about what they do, we want to make it home in one piece after shift. We constantly hear the complaining from the civilian community we took an oath to protect. We go to the crackhouse with armed drug dealers known to be armed, all because the civilians asked us to. I have been called to do many things I'd never want my son to deal with because of the danger involved. I've gotten my butt kicked by some strung-out wife beater and found her sitting next to him in court, huggin and kissing him. The next time anyone wants to complain because officers are human and make mistakes, think about what the civilian community really asks of them.
I train at the range anywhere from once to three times a week. I, along with other officers bought our own urban rifles and trained hard so we can serve the civilians better. Countless times I had calls to respond to a shooter, buckshot doesn't do the trick. #1 reason I train so hard is so I can be alive to fight crime another day and my children to have their father. Words like "some" and "officers I've actually observed" are more appropriate than "cops suck, cops think..., or whatever". We serve the civilians and we do the best we can with what we have, or to be more specific, we do the best we can with what the civilian community provides. Thats it. My 2 cents and my opinion only. Thank a cop next time you see one.
 
Here's my take on the situation.

The shotgun has a long-standing tradition in police work dating back to the earliest days of our nation. Tradition is a hard thing to kill.

From a functional standpoint, the shotgun is rather easy to learn and give you a lot of bang for the buck. It's also very good at taking abuse and neglect without damaging the functionality of the weapon.

Overpenetration concerns are limited compared to the pistol-caliber weapons or the .223 carbines. This isn't to say that overpenetration won't happen, just that this is the lesser of the three. Multiple false-wall tests support this.

Like anything else, there are trade-offs. The shotgun isn't perfect for every task, but it's pretty darn close.

What do I use? Well, I've never done much shotgun work so I use a Marlin M45 Carbine for home defense. It uses the same mags as my prefered pistol and is short, light and quite capable at detering the bad guys. At work, I'm issued a Remmie 870 that has seen it's fair share of abuse. I wouldn't want to pull the trigger on that beast for fear of it blowing up on me.

Is there a .223 carbine in my future? Yup. Don't need it, but I'll be danged if I'm gonna let some two-bit mudsuckers in DC tell me I can't have it!

Paramilitary police? Around here, they seem to be the norm. The ex-mil cops seem to be the worst for that holier-than-thou attitude.
 
My only question to those that argue that Police should not have anything but a pistol and a shotgun. When you have another couple of bank robbers with body armor, and better weapons than the cops, and you are one that is responding, what would you rather have? A shotgun in the trunk which works for 90% of situations, but won't penetrate the body armor, or an ar15 loaded with AP rounds? Personally I would keep both, and use the ar15 for longer range situations requiring more accuracy, and the shotty for warrents, etc. You forget that many times, regular patrol cops do many other things besides patrol, and I hope that they get the weapons for dealing with societie's rise in violent crime. The good guys should always be better armed, better trained, and better equipped than the BG's. IF that makes them look like swat, then they look like swat. Idon't care about their apperance, I care about their performance! If they make crime go down, then I don't care what uniform they put on, what gun belt they wear, or what gun they carry.
 
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