Why Law enforcement embraces smoothbores?

P

PSE

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in a related conversation about patrol carbines the topic of shotguns were brough up. most if not all local, county and state LE issue shotguns. the VAST majotity being 18" cyl choke 12 ga remington 870's and the most common loading being 00Buck 2 3/4.
the question is this...
w/ concern to a liability situation, at what distance can this set up keep all 9 pellets on a B27 target? 20 yards, maybe?
so at close distance 0-20 yards this seems viable, huh? what about 20 +? now we have stray pellets that can hit innocents. and what about the energy of a single 30 cal round ball against an armed assailant? ineffective not even considering if the BG wearing body armour. via Hollywood bank.
too me a shotgun has no redeeming characteristics. clumsey, hard recoiling (i know you can load low energy) poor accuracy, high liability and poor energy at anything over pistol range.
at any distance that a shotgun is effective a pistol would most likely be a better choice.
OK, now someone post that BS "the sound of a shotgun pump is enough to make a cracked up pitbull crap" nonesense. if the BG's are close enough to here me pump it i probably am taking direct fire anyways.
 
Just from generalizations, LEOs carry shotguns for close quarters, afterall they're not trying to take down a deer at 300 meters. Regardless of body armor or not, I'd tend to think that if a BG got hit by nine pellets of 00, it might stun him enough to take a better shot.

Remember, a typical 9mm or 40 service isn't going to do much of someone driving at you, at least with the shotgun you have a chance of busting out the window.

Police already have a "presicion" weapon, that being their pistol if they're proficient with it. Use the shotgun when you need more of a spray...or you're out of pistol cartridges :D
 
You can do interesting things with chokes and buckshot and there are special rounds also that will give very tight patterns.Experiment with different chokes and see what you can get.
 
Quote: "at any distance that a shotgun is effective a pistol would most likely be a better choice."

PSE - Kinda contradictory to ya sig line, huh? :confused:
 
Grey, time is the issue. if i have the time to access a bigger gun first i would not choose a pistol.
LE considers 30 feet the distance at which an office can draw and fire 2 shots at a closing subject. no one can pop the trunk and grab a long gun before the BG gets to them. therefor the pistol is there to slow down the BG while i get a bigger gun. and my bigger trunk gun IS NOT a shotgun.
 
For the close in subject, 00 Buck will leave a lasting impression.

Further than 15 yards? That's when you select a 1 oz. slug, drop it in the port, close the slide and engage up to 75 yards. I can do this almost as fast as I can cycle the slide.

Not enough time to pull a slug out of the sidesaddle? Cycle the pump twice.

LE considers 30 feet the distance at which an office can draw and fire 2 shots at a closing subject. no one can pop the trunk and grab a long gun before the BG gets to them. therefor the pistol is there to slow down the BG while i get a bigger gun. and my bigger trunk gun IS NOT a shotgun.
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Actually, it's further than that, if your weapon is holstered. 21 feet is the maximum safe distance if you have your weapon already drawn. Also, most departments don't carry their rifles or shotguns in the trunk. When I exit my patrol unit, I can get out with either my shotgun or my AR15 in my hand if I choose.

And trust me--I have personally seen violent suspects tremble--VISIBLY--when they hear that pump cycle, and even more so when they are staring down a .72 caliber bore.

OK, now someone post that BS "the sound of a shotgun pump is enough to make a cracked up pitbull crap" nonesense. if the BG's are close enough to here me pump it i probably am taking direct fire anyways.
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Just curious--ever seen what happens on a hot (felony) stop with multiple suspects? How about someone holed up in a room on a building search?

The shotgun is indeed a fearsome weapon in the eyes of those who are confronted with it.
 
powderman, i guess your a little confused. years ago 21 feet was the MINIMUM distance. we call it the reactionary gap. it has, in the last few years, been upgraded to 30 feet. if you'll check w/ you dept's traing Sgt. he'll most likely tell you the same.
as far as trembling BG's, i'v seen a man piss himself when a baton was opened. your point?
and by the way, i have seen both. very close up. i dont think that a shotgun answers all situations anymore than a pistol does.
i am saying that for the majority of cops (wh dont shoot recreationaly, who dont hunt) a shotgun is an ill advised weapon. they would be better off w/ a pistol cal. carbine. 90%+ of the people i've worked w/ dont have your nerves of steel to be able to shoot a shotgun effectivly during a HS situation. most shut their eyes and pump-click till she's empty then try to reload and drop half the shells in the prosses. AT THE RANGE! not even a real situation.
we had a situation in our sister city last year when a deputy was advised by his sgt to load a less than lethal on a traffic stop. he had his 12 rigged w/ the first load 00 and then slug. he jacked out the 00 and dropped in the BAGrd. after attempting to then scare the suspect by "letting him hear it" ie. racking the slide. he fired what he had forgot (he later said) was now a slug into said unarmed subject.
NO MAS SLUGS here at least.
 
we had a situation in our sister city last year when a deputy was advised by his sgt to load a less than lethal on a traffic stop. he had his 12 rigged w/ the first load 00 and then slug. he jacked out the 00 and dropped in the BAGrd. after attempting to then scare the suspect by "letting him hear it" ie. racking the slide. he fired what he had forgot (he later said) was now a slug into said unarmed subject.
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That's exactly why many departments have gone to "dedicated" bean bag guns. Too easy to mix up ammo under preasure. Such dedicated guns are usually fluorescent orange, marked "Less lethal," and should never be loaded with anything else.

But the shotgun itself is a good weapon, versatile with slugs or shot and can be used together so long as we remember it is <b>always</b> a lethal gun.

Shot patterns are fine at up to 25 yards, any further and slugs should be selected. Even hotage shots can ge taken if the officer is proficient, but they need to know thier gun's capabilities. (I could do it with my smooth bore 870 to 17 yards with very little or no possibility of hitting the hostage)

Building searches are a good place to consider the mix - most rooms buck is best as the distace is short and penetration undesirable. Some large rooms, a slug in the bore would be a good idea, but dont' forget the penetration factor!

Buckshot can also be used to open a door in emergecys such as "active shooter" scenarios - try that with you pistol or patrol carbine. Only the stoutest of doors can stop it.

clumsey, hard recoiling (i know you can load low energy) poor accuracy, high liability and poor energy at anything over pistol range.
at any distance that a shotgun is effective a pistol would most likely be a better choice.
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Huh? You don't know shotguns very well I take it. That's OK - sign up for a class and learn. They aren't clumsy (seen guys in class fire 5 aimed, accurate, rounds at fifteen yards in under 3 seconds, can do it myself consistantly in just under 3.5 without warmup practice.) They aren't overly hard recoiling, less than my .30-30 unless you load with magnum brass - always a trade off. They are very accurate within thier limitations - superior to handguns over 25 yards as far as I'm concerned (And yes, I'm one of those who practice at man sized targets at 100 yards with my handgun). They have much greater energy even with low recoil rounds at any range you can hit at if you use proper load selection. Properly used there is no comparison.

I favor Patrol Rifle setups in every situation too, but for depatments that cannot have rifles, a 12 ga is the next best thing and I don't feel inadecuate when taking it from the trunk instead of my AR in anyway.
 
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PSE - not to be facetious, but, instead, being serious - I suggest you take a 2-3 day shotgun class to familiarize yourself with a properly equipped police shotgun and learn how such is employed.

I took a thee day tactical shotgun course with these guys:

www.morrigan-consulting.com

What a shotgun can do that a pistol cannot is put (with 2.75" 00 Buck) nine .32 caliber holes into an assailant per pull of the trigger. That kind of trauma has a very high likelihood of stopping the assailant's hostile activities pronto.

As for a shotgun being clumsy - yes, if the gun is not equipped properly, it can be cumbersome. I had to shorten mine to a 12.5" LOP to make it workable for me. After one day of class, all of us realized that the factory std 14-15" LOP is too damn long. Also, hang 9 rounds in a sewer pipe under the bbl and you put a lot of weight way forward. My 18.5" Remington 870 with ghost ring sights, a modest +2 extension, and a sling is a quick handling close range monster.

With any shotgun, you should pattern your gun with your ammo to see how far you can safely employ it on a human target. With my shotgun, I can put all the pellets in a human target out to about 50 feet. Past that, I pop in a slug and can hit anything out to 75-100 yards.

If 12g is too much, a pump gun properly equipped in 16, 20, or .410 gauge is no slouch.

I live in an apartment and must be acutely aware that any rounds I fire can go through walls and adversely effect other residents. From traiing and experience, I know that the likelihood of stray projectiles going through walls and injuring other residents is somewhat less for my chosen shotgun loads than with a conventional rifle round.
 
i tried the USMC military police combat shotgun course, even taught. i guess it didnt take. i never gained the steel nerves to shoot slugs out of a smoothbore, bead sight, 18" pump at 100 yards under stress. furthermore i never caught on to the action nessasary to alter physics and reduce the pattern of said shotguns cylinder bore so that i could get all those 32 cal pellets into said B27 past 20 yards. do i need special candles or a chant?
 
Some of the requirements to pass my agency's shotgun qualification course is to take a head shot with 000 buck at 15 yds on a hostage target (no hit on hostage allowed), and a C.O.M. hit at 100 yds with a slug from the prone position. Both of these shots are easy with practice.

We use Mossberg 500s with the ghost ring sight. Wish I had this when I was hunting deer back east as a youngster.

The office likes the scattergun also because a stray round will not travel the several miles that a centerfire rifle bullet can. It's also very intimidating to rack the slide.
 
Try a shotgun with a Vang Comp System, add a set of ghost ring sights and you won't be reaching for your patrol rifle first. I carry my AR in the trunk because there are places I'd rather use it, but my shotgun stays inside with me.
 
Law enforcement persons may sometimes get away with violating some laws themselves. But we appear to have some here that think they also can violate the laws of physics. I would simply like an explanation of how a load of buckshot has no more kick or recoil than a 30-30?

And somehow, sure seems no matter how incredibly fast and well trained you are with a shotgun, you can be faster, and more accurate with a pistol caliber carbine. But hey, for somebody that can alter physical reality, maybe I being close-minded.
 
Law enforcement persons may sometimes get away with violating some laws themselves. But we appear to have some here that think they also can violate the laws of physics. I would simply like an explanation of how a load of buckshot has no more kick or recoil than a 30-30?
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Combine the following ingredients:

Benelli Super 90 or Remington 1100
Vang-Comp recoil reduction system
Recoil Buffer

Trust me, you won't believe that slugs--even 3 inch magnums--can actually be comfortable to shoot.

And somehow, sure seems no matter how incredibly fast and well trained you are with a shotgun, you can be faster, and more accurate with a pistol caliber carbine. But hey, for somebody that can alter physical reality, maybe I being close-minded.
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At ranges to 50 yards, the shotgun and pistol caliber carbine both hold their own as far as accuracy, but for raw stopping power the shotgun wins hands down. At 100 yards, if necessary? Forget about it--it's the shotgun.

And, at close to medium ranges, the savvy armed robber or criminal wearing level II body armor will shrug off the effects of most pistol caliber carbines. Let's see them shrug off a COM hit with a Federal 1 oz slug.
 
A shotgun is not a claymore mine, least none that I've handled. If somebody says they put all their pellets in a B27 at twenty + yards, I believe them, having performed comparable feets of prestidigitation and arcane legerdemain. :rolleyes:

Perhaps y'all need a new shotgun?

Mine, however, does kick like a shotgun (though I've never shot a 30-30).
 
Physics is every action has an equal and opposite reaction. An ounce of buck pushed by a 12 bore column of 15kpsi gas to 1200fps is roughly equal to a 150gr projectile pushed by a .308 diameter column of 45kpsi gas to around 2400 fps.
 
The original question, as I understood it, was why does LE favor the shotgun over a carbine type rifle or a handgun.

Shotguns have a number of characteristics that rifled weapons do not.
  1. When facing a crowd, a shotgun is a better weapon since it is more likely to impact multiple targets at a distance. More importantly, those in the crowd know it!
  2. In riot situations where SHTF seriously, firing a shotgun produces more projectiles, faster than a SMG or M16 (9 pellets x 6 rounds = 54 projectiles)
  3. At closer ranges the effect of a shotgun against an assailant is ... dramatic.
  4. The 12 gauge can be loaded with "specialty" loads to breach doors/locks, fire smoke, tear gas, rubber, wood or bean-bag projectiles. Try that in your AR or M1A.
  5. In urban areas the downrange threat is limited in range compared to a rifle or handgun round.
  6. Less danger of overpenetration than with a rifle/carbine, especially through multiple walls.

Remember too that historically the police are the ones called on to break up large disturbances -- mobs, riots, etc. -- and in some places he will be the only LE there. If you're part of the mob and 100 yards away when he points that smoothbore in your general direction you'll be looking for the nearest exit.

And by the way, IMO if LE's are going to be armed with a "carbine" or rifle, then select one that uses a rifle cartridge. There's no sense in having a long gun unless it offers something much more than a handgun round.
 
Turn it around-

You're across the room from someone trying to shoot you-do you want them to have a .40 caliber pistol, or a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 00?

I know what I pick....


Larry
 
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