Why is the shotgun (seemingly) fading in police circles?

G

Greg Bell

New member
Guys,

I have always been a big fan of shotguns for use in defensive situations. It seems to me that the shotgun can deliver more useful firepower in 95% of all civilian and police encounters than a pistol, rifle, or machine-gun. I shoot Mac-10s, MP-5s and M-16s quite a bit now days, and although they are fun as hell, I really don't think they are as useful for defensive purposes.

That said, it seems like the shotgun is becoming less popular in police circles. When I have asked cops about this, one of whom is a very good friend of mine and member of this forum, I haven't gotten a clear answer. My bud, who carries an M4-style semi, points too the shotguns limited range. Honestly though, considering the limited nature of most officer's training with long guns, it seems like a rifle is less likely to make useful hits, or hits at all. I know shotguns are not heat-seeking missiles, but you are much more likely to hit, IMHO, with an emergency snap shot using 12 gauge buckshot than .223. What am I missing here? Don't worry about flaming me, I am genuinely perplexed.:confused:

GHB
 
One Explanation?

I read an article, several years ago, about this subject. It was about the vanishing police shotgun. The article stated how a 12 gauge slug is one of the most effective, close range fight stopper. So why are they not using shotguns in law enforcement any more?

One is reason is recoil. In the past, most police recruits came with a background in shooting or hunting. They were accustomed to a gun that kicks. There is no doubt that a shotgun slug or buckshot kicks. These days, many rookie cops have little or no shooting experience. And there are more women entering the force. This sounds sexist, but a 12 gauge recoil with a slug is not something to sneeze at.

The point is, most new police recruits can't seem to handle the kick of a shotgun.
 
roy reali said:
The point is, most new police recruits can't seem to handle the kick of a shotgun.
Click to expand...

I'm sure there are other reasons but that doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Kind of like the old "Soldiers of today (said in the mid to late 60's) can't handle the recoil of such cartridges like the .30-06 like their fathers." comment that got thrown around. And with the woman thing aside, both the shotgun and battle/assault rifle stance on this is just nonsense. Most even if they didn't come up hunting should be able to train with and utilize weapons with mass recoil, otherwise they shouldn't even be in the units they're in. I and many others were handling shotguns in 12 gauge and .30-06 caliber rifles at age 10 and 11 respectively and actually hitting what we shot at. If a kid can take those kinds of recoil I'm sure even the non-hunting/firearm enthusiast type who's a grown man can handle it.

Me thinks that article you're quoting is right, but there HAS TO BE something more to it. If it's the only reason then I really do weep for the future. That's just shameful.
 
That is depressing. If you can't get past recoil, you probably aren't going to have the discipline to shoot a rifle or pistol either. :(
 
..if thats true, what a panty-wasted generation!! I bought a model 12 riot a few months ago and just fired for the first time...if their enthusiasm is diminishing, mine is growing..next free Sat I will take it out and try some pattern testing on some butcher paper and see what this gun will do!
 
Recoil, limited range, slow reloading & low mag capacity.
As soon as my old department authorized AR15s for regular cop cars I retired my 870 & carried the AR till I retired. It could handle anything from 5 feet to 300 yards, quick recovery between shots, easy on the shoulder, 20-30 rounds in one mag, and a very quick reload with another mag.
I still have that 870 (cut to 14 inches now) and a Vang Comp 870, and neither one hurts me to shoot it, but if there's a chance things are going to happen outside 25 yards, the AR gets the nod.
Slugs were also problematic and erratic through shotguns not set up with adjustable sights.
Denis
 
During the 80s I taught hundreds of Correctional Officers to shoot, including with the 870, 00 and slugs.

Unless they came from a shooting background, chances were they wouldn't move past bare minimum proficiency with the shotgun. Most dreaded the recoil.

And round count mattered. The odd trapshooter coming through was almost guaranteed to be better than the hunters using only two boxes of shells a year.

Trained, motivated, competent shooters armed with shotguns are very effective.

Unmotivated, lackadaisical shooters are not.
 
Interesting Website

Some time ago I was surfing the web looking for ballistic information. I found an interesting sight that I can't seem to relocate.

It had very graphic photos of gunshot wounds. Then it had details about prognosis and treatment of said wounds. It seemed like some kind of medical sight. One part explained shotgun wounds, specifically slug wounds to the chest. The text explained that a person hit in the chest, at short range, with a slug, has a very low surviviability rate. In other words, it is a bad wound.

At short range, it does not take many slugs to discourage a person from doing harm to another.
 
The whole world is a slave to fashion, and bureaucrats are no different. Styles and trends change everywhere and with everything. For example, the law enforcement community abandoned revolvers for double-stack 9mms, then slavishly followed the FBI in a search for bigger bores in their handguns. More magazine capacity than a mere 6-shot wheelgun was important, then bigger bullets were important. The 'styles' changed, and the hardware changed along with it.

Now in the Age of Terrorism we have all those Eurocops with svelte subguns, and all the bigleague US players are going over to carbines or subguns too. It is understandable that bureaucrats in Everytown USA wants to go along with the crowd and equip their people just like everyone they see on teevee. Shotguns are so passe, you know, old fashioned, no one but redneck sheriffs or small town podunk police who can't afford better carry them any more.

Some of it has to do with liability concerns among the bureaucrats in this litigious age, no one wants officers launching even a single projectile if they can help it, much less a swarm of them with every trigger pull- each of which has to be accounted for. And slugs overpenetrate and kick too hard so no one can hit with them anyway.

And so it goes. Frankly the only time it bothers me is when some pinko antigunner jefe de policia decides to have all those trusty 870Ps chopped into scrap instead of selling them as surplus to help pay for the department's new allotment of Beretta Storms.

lpl/nc
 
Started before the "Age of Terrorism". The War on Drugs allowed many police depts. to justify lots of new toys, from ARs to armored battering rams and so on. This stuff trickled down to even many small towns, especially when funds rained down from state and federal sources, all justified (and financed)by you and me when the politicians make so much hay over being tough on crime.
 
The shotgun will never die!!!!
Long live the 870!!!:D

Well seriously, we use SGs for boarding ops. I cannot see a rifle taking that role any time soon. We got them to replace Sterling SMGs in the early 90s.
Nothing can beat the firepower and intimidation factor of a 12ga down a small passageway.
 
A 12 Gauge has lots of recoil?:confused: . I know Co-Workers that must weight about 130 lbs and shoot magnum loads no problem. Yea, we have the "Girlie Generation".
 
BTW, the reduced recoil 12 ga works very well. Smaller officers especially women, lack of training are the main problems .
 
No one has mentioned Edmundo Morales lying on the ground trying to pump a shell into a shotgun with one arm while the drug runners ate them alive with automatic fire. Nuff Said.
 
For years the pump was the preferred back up gun for police. But times change. An officer armed with a semi-auto pistol would find training with a semi-auto rifle easier. Military training transfers directly. Magazines load in a similar fashion and SAFE Carry and clearing the weapons are the same.

Am I the only one noticing the proliferation of Clearance Barrels at LEO buildings?

Geoff
Who heard a bang from the <deleted> HQ building one fine lunch hour in the park. :rolleyes:
 
I agree, capacity, rate of fire, rate of reload, range, etc all come into play.

The shotgun still has some uses, but I would just rather use an SMG or carbine in most situations.

And come on Lapin! I'm sure they said things like tanks, catridged ammunition, and planes were considered fashionable too.
 
Psychological Edge

I believe that the police lost a psychological edge when they went away from the shotgun. I realize, some of the edge any weapon has is perception, but as they say, sometimes that is reality.

When cops had shotguns, and they exited their cruisers with one, everyone knew they meant business. They were expecting a fight and were going to stop it quick.

If shotguns are so useless, why is it in two major wars, complaints were filed against soldiers using them in combat. The Germans, in both big conflicts, were very vocal about the use of shotguns against their troops. It was war and their objections were silly to say the least, but they were not too happy about that weapon, espically in trench warfare.
 
Despite my terse remark above, I would have to say that a repeated recoil would distract from being able to track action in a combat situation.

I have done some rapid shooting with success, but would have to track separate targets to get a feel for what would happen in combat.
 
Ticked Someone

Like I mentioned above, the shotgun in combat apparently upset some folks. If it was ineffective, why would anyone complain. If our soldiers entered battle with Daisy BB Guns, I doubt a fuss would have been made.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top