Why is God so feared by liberals?

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I don't think they fear God. I think it's a fear of absolute moral virtues against which behavior can be measured. See George Will's column this week for further discussion on the difference between virtues and "liberal values."

I think they fear having to acknowledge the existence of free will.


[This message has been edited by Ledbetter (edited May 25, 2000).]
 
This has probably been said before, but I think liberals reject the worship of God because they worship themselves.

Liberals are a pantheon of godlings who stand above the rest of us. As little gods, they are not subject to the same standards that we are, nor do we have the rights and privileges that they enjoy. They simply lay down the law, which the rest of us must obey.

My $0.02.
 
Dave B: The Modern American Liberal is not the same thing as the Classical Liberal. The latter style of thought gave us the founding documents of this nation. The Modern American Liberal is predominantly Statist in his thinking--Government *should* decide upon and provide All Things Good to people who do not continually disagree with its definitions.

In almost two years, now, of reading the posts on this board, I have yet to see anybody mention any concept of morality and ethics which does not derive from the Judeo-Christian base.

That very vocal minority of all Christians who are trying to encode their beliefs into our laws are not representative of Christians-at-large. To me it does not seem fair to categorize "All" Christians as wanting some particular idea made into law. We as gun owners resent it when we are all condemned by Rosie as though we are part and parcel of the gun-crime problem, do we not?

So, after reading the posts in this thread, I stand by my previous comments as to the Modern American Liberals of the strongly pro-Billary type. These are not the same as the Classical Liberals; that philosophy pretty much left public life in the late 1920s.

Finally, I would ask: For the last 380 years, what sizable group other than Christians has spoken publicly to issues of morals and ethics?

Regards, Art
 
Just for clarity my definition of liberal is a klintonian socialist. Guess it's not text book just my view so to speak.



[This message has been edited by scud (edited May 25, 2000).]
 
C'mon, Art. You don't really believe that all nonChristian religions, organized or otherwise, are amoral. Do you? The Christian view of morality, 'Do unto others...' is far from unique.

As a matter of fact, I suggest that contemporary American Institutional Christianity is so far removed from the teachings of Christ that comparisons between the two are laughable.

The contention that 'Liberals' (or anyone else) are doodoo because they don't buy into the rightWing Christian format is offensive to say the least. Apparently there's a proverb (?) among Christian youth: WWJD. It translates to "What would Jesus Do?". I submit that many people who use it are not really interested in the answer.

db
 
Tackdriver,
Regarding "Thou shalt not kill." The Hebrew word translated "kill" is per Strong's Dictionary is "07523.xur ratsach, raw-tsakh'
a primitive root; properly, to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder:--put to death, kill, (man-)slay(-er), murder(-er)." If we consider that God decreed that the Israelites kill their enemies in the conquering of Canaan, and that certain crimes/sins were to be punished by death then it is obvious that God did not command that no human was/is to be killed under any circumstance. He has given the government the authority to punish crime with the death penalty when appropriate. Further, it does not prohibit self-defense. It does prohibit murder and vengeance by the individual.
I am against the government establishing a state religion. That does not mean there is to be a separation of God and government.
The laws of a nation are always linked to the primary religious beliefs of that nation. Our laws reflect the Judeo-Christian ethic contained in the Holy Bible. The result has been the greatest nation in the history of the world. I maintain that without proper religious beliefs there can not be proper values in the laws of a nation or the behavior of the citizens of that nation. I know of no atheistic nation except Communist nations. I would be interested in hearing how an atheist arrives at right and wrong conduct. Since mankind does not automatically arrive at proper moral values, again considering cannibals and headhunters, there must be some set of standards. Without religion where do the moral values/standards come from? Since you and others who profess to be atheists grew up in this nation you must have drawn your standards from the laws and the societal norms you observed. However, these came from the religious views of the founding fathers and the citizens of this nation.
The murders at Columbine and Jonesboro reflect the lack of respect for life. If there were no God and therefore no absolute moral values then what would be wrong with murdering those who cause you pain? Some societies would say "Nothing." Only the Sovereign of the universe has the right to establish absolute right and wrong. Most of us believe that He is and does have that right and authority, and in general support laws that reflect what He has said in His Word.
In any society someone's values are imposed upon that society as a whole. Accordingly, I will seek to have the Biblical values upon which this country was founded to continue to be the values of the nation. There has been a great departure from them, but I will continue to strive to reverse that trend. RKBA is linked to morality. Jerry
 
As a Lebanese American, it is not God that I fear but self-righteous, overzealous morons who consider themselves his spokesmen....and I find the American ones to be just as dangerous as the Lebanese ones.


------------------
*quack*
 
Liberal "freedom"=licentiousness

Justification for licentiousness=moral relativism

Christianity=moral absolutism

===>Liberal "freedom" cannot be justified in a morally absolute climate.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mikul:
The liberal view of religion is skewed because most of them came of a Christian background or society.

Yes, indeed, that was my experience.

While growing up they decided that adultery, fornication, gluttony, sloth, and a few other things really weren't that bad, and then resented the Christian church for telling them so for so long.

Actually I was gravely disturbed at most of those things being present in those who claimed the name of christ. Incidentally, adultery is a form of fornication.

The liberal resentment toward religion is only aimed at Christianity. There is an acceptance of eastern religions and pagan religions, but Christianity will open old wounds.

As I have mentioned, I resent anyone who tells me that the speaker's way is the only way. I do not claim my way is suitable for all, and ask only the same consideration in return.

The funny thing is that they ARE a religion. Sure, what they're doing NOW isn't working, but they BELIEVE that if they just make these things illegal, and take just a LITTLE more money from people...

Actually, sir, as has been stated, you are referring to **statists**. Liberal means: a.Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.
b.Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.
[/quote]

Sir, I proudly claim the title. And you- well, I recall what Paul said in 1 COR 8:2. And of my liberal brethren, I think of the following verse.

[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited May 25, 2000).]
 
i think of these people (Liberals) as Power-Mongers. Whether in Bill Clinton's case a personal-power monger, or say Rosie who is trying to assemble more power for the state, the root cause is the same, "they" think that they know what's best for "us", and if we'd just accept thier Authority, all would be perfect. By looking to a higher authority, be it God, Buddah, Allah, Pappa Smurf, your own conscience, or whatever, you have look OVER thier authority. This fundamentally challenges thier authority, and they don't like that.

I don't think it's God they fear, it's their loss of power.
 
Many good points have been made here. What do most of us share despite our religious beliefs or fears? : The 2nd Amendment. Words on paper that are absolute and truthful. I venture to guess that most of us are "fundamentalists" on this issue.

I also tend to believe that even the most atheistic individual on this thread shares something with the heaviest "bible thumper" (no offense, talking extremes): There are eternal absolute truths! Example: THE UNIVERSAL LAW OF SELF DEFENSE.

What I can only label Neoliberals suffer the same moral relativity as any power hungary political force. They only believe in what is convenient or expedient. This is not the habit of either staunch athiests or devout christians or other individuals. They both believe in SOMETHING. Example: I would buy a car from anyone on this thread and assume I would get an honest deal ala the moral compass that we choose to acknowledge regardless of the source of that compass.

Good men and women should be free to lie to themselves. They do not lie to others because it is wrong whether Christ or Steven Hawkings say so. Peace.
 
Jerry,
I said that if you could read hebrew, you were free to debate :)
If you don't mind me waxing philosophical on you, then I have a point to make.
Any religion or God is created to give order to the world, not vice versa. They are established to give moral codes and to explain the otherwise unexplainable. They are established to give people comfort in terms of death and to scare people into doing the right thing.
That there are many religions in the world with basically the same moral codes should tell us something.
The fundamentals behind the ten commandments aren't a manefestation of a God, they're just rules to keep society functioning that any reasonable person would agree to.
Killing, stealing, disrespect for authority and family contribute to the decline of society and ultimately make life miserable for everyone. It doesn't take a rocket scientist, or a God to realize this.
And just for the record, I think there are way more buddhists (atheists) than Christians in the world. Their society is not less moral than ours, yet they don't believe in a God. Funny how that works.
 
I must say, that I am impressed at the discussions that have taken place within this thread.

I must apologise for my careless choice of words in blanketing those "State minded" people and those of with a "superiority/godlike" complex as liberals.

I stand corrected on my term liberals. And I respectfully request your forgiveness.

As to my use of GOD. I make no apology, however, after reading this thread, I understand that I could have chosen the terms "morals and ethics" to convey my questioning of those with the "LEFT" leaning mentality.

I have a number of liberal friends who are anti-death penalty, anti-guns, pro-abortion, and pro-sexual deviations. These ideas do not appeal to me. Do I believe my friends to be moral and ethical. By what standards? Mine and my families. I would have to say no. To the standards of todays society, then the answer would be yes.

To those atheist who responded. I ask you this: Whether your believe in God or an Almighty Being or not, is there anything wrong with applying the teachings of the bible to everyday life. Are the TEN COMMANDMENTS not worthy to be followed, whether you believe they came from God or not? If you follow the rules put in the Bible, atheist or beliver, I know you will not have a problem with morals or ethics.

I guess my whole point that I was trying to make, was to show that the establishment/elite/state-ist of this country have a problem with anything they can not control. Be it Guns or God. And both Guns and God give power to the masses.

Again, I bid you peace and God's great blessings. Pray for this great Nation and her wonderful people. If you do not pray, then think happy and pure thoughts.

Godbless you all.

Judge Blackhawk
 
I just now found this thread and several points come to mind:

1) Y'all have conducted yourself as gentle people. Thank you. FWIW, I'm impressed.

2) The thread is full of non sequiters
- (Blank) does bad (or good), therefore his belief is bad/invalid/impossible (good/correct), etc.

3) Frankly, for the sake of TFL and, "in a larger sense" our RKBA, I care not what our personal beliefs may be on or toward the subject of religion (organized or personal).

This isn't the place, folks. Although you have done well (stayed polite, etc.), note that this subject divides us rather than unites us.

Therefore, with compliments to all participants, I must close this thread.

I respectfully request TFLers find a different venue for religious discussions and debate.

Thank you.
 
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