Why is carrying reloaded ammo for SD, a bad idea?

K

kristop64089

New member
IF you load it to spec? IF it is a legit load, how is it a bad deal?

I understand that a DA could paint you as a maniac, or coldblooded, or that it was pre-meditated.

I was just wondering what makes it SO bad?

Please save the flaming, just an honest question.
 
Because the Internet says so

And so do a couple of courtroom experts. Their main argument is what the DA could claim. "You see, regular ammuntions wasn't deadly enough, he went and made his own", and there is no good reason for giving them anything extra they can use to paint you in a bad light.

Also, there is the repeatability factor. At least one case involved the forensics judging the firing distance based on powder burns/residue. With handloaded ammo, there is no standard that can be used for comparison. Even if you have rounds loaded with the same thing, the prosecutor will disallow that they are the same thing, because, its only your word that they are. So, if based on powder residue they say that you fired from 8-10feet, and you were actually 15 feet (or whatever) away, with factory ammo, the defense can call for testing of the ammo to prove or disprove their case.

Using a slow powder (compared to factory ammo) could "prove" you were closer, making you out to be a liar, and once you lose creditability, you have a much harder fight.

All this being true, there is still no clear case where the use of handloads has lost someone their case in court. For the best liability "armor" carry factory ammo. It may not make a difference, but why take the chance?
 
My attorney would claim that I was a poor victim defending myself from a greedy thug.
"He is so poor that he couldn't even afford to buy ammunition at the store, he had to make his own." :D
 
I've always thought of reloaded ammo as being less reliable than factory loads. This has also been my shooting experience. I've seen more problems on the range with reloaded ammo versus factory. I guess that, instead of "reload" you used brand new brass and inspected each round before, during, and after, you would come up with a very reliable carry load.

But, as had been mentioned, it could turn into more trouble than it is worth in the courtroom.
 
I do not buy factory ammo and never will. I trust my reloads 100%. Much more accruate and If they want to sue me because I defended myself with them, let them. Rather be sued than DEAD! Have had more problems with factory crap not shooting then my own.
But this is just my opinion so don't come down on me to hard.:D
It is basically what everybody feels comfortable carrying.
 
If you use the same ammo as the local cops carry, even if in a different caliber, ammo becomes a bit of non-issue in court.

The thing to remember in court is the jury. In many places your 'peers' are pretty witless about many things and are very likely to buy into an 'evil ammo conspiracy' statement by a prosecutor.

You mind find that any juror with any actual experience with reloading is removed for cause during jury selection due to 'bias', leaving a very clueless jury.
 
Personally, I only carry factory. either Gold dot or XTP. I just got to thinking today as I was loading up some 135 grn 10mm Noslers, that I would much rather be carrying these. Seems like such a waste, just using them for "plinking"
 
This often ends up being one of the REALLY passionate and obnoxious arguments topics on these forums. I've seen it go around a few times.

The folks who claim that factory ammo isn't as reliable as their handloads could, IMO, get the best of both worlds if they bought a couple boxes of hardcore, expensive defense ammo, and tore the ammo down, inspected the flash hole, primer, re-measure the powder charge and re-seat the bullet. Fact is, a decent handloader using only the components he compiled from breaking down new, factory ammo could build "handloads" from those components that even a crack prosecution team couldn't be sure wasn't simply a box of factory defense ammo.

And then, their argument that they don't "trust" factory ammo would be defeated. The only part of the round that would be suspect would be the primer -- which will always be suspect, until you pop it. (then you know for sure that it WAS good, and isn't any longer...)
 
I'd suggest PM'ing Massad Ayoob (he's a member here, his screen name is Mas Ayoob) as I seem to remember a piece he did a while back about a cop that got into some hot water for using reloads. I know Mr. Ayoob is quite adamant about using only factory ammo for CC and I'm sure he could explain why quite eloquently.
 
Most experts say ....
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What 'experts'? I see finally that 'Mr. Ayoob' is mentioned, but nothing to back up why reloaded ammo for SD is bad.... 'yet' :) . I reload all my ammo BTW, other than .22 of course...
 
I've never seen a single court case where a defendant lost their case because they used reloaded ammo. I've also never seen a case where a DA made an issue of reloaded ammo being used. Can anyone cite a court case(s), someone with access to Lexus Nexus? I would like to see a couple if they can be found.

I'm not talking about police using reloaded ammo on duty, this is a totally different issue. I'm only concerned with a regular citizen that used reloaded ammo in self defense and was charged with a crime related to their using reloaded ammo.
 
If you use the same ammo as the local cops carry, even if in a different caliber, ammo becomes a bit of non-issue in court.
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I have read Ayoob recommending this, also other "experts".

"Officer, what caliber is YOUR duty weapon?" "What type of ammo do YOU carry?" "And what are your duties as a LEO?"

Ans: "To protect life and property."
 
I told myself I wasn't going to get in another one of these re-loads for defense arguments, but I can't resist.

Sturmgewehre said:
I would like to see a couple if they can be found.
Click to expand...

Basically Sturm, there is next to nothing, after being pushed and prodded over on THR, this is all that Mr. Ayoob could come up with.

Cases Where Handloads Caused Problems in Court

You can read the complete thread here.

Of the four cases he cites only in one was the person convicted and it appears to me that that person may have murdered his wife.

I one of the cases hand loads could have been an issue, but were not.

In one of the cases he sites hand loads were not involved, but if they had been used they might have caused a problem.:rolleyes:

So basically, the father of the legal difficulties from using hand loads for defense theory, could only come up with two cases where hand loads were a factor.

In the first NH v. Kennedy, the defendant was acquitted. In the second... well read it for yourself. In the second trial hand loads were not a factor and furthermore the man may very well have murdered his wife.
 
I trust my reloads, but not yours....

And if a factory round failure gets me killed, at least my heirs have somebody to sue.

As previously stated, with reloads or handloads (put up with entirely new components) you can inspect and verify everything except the primer. That part we have to take on faith.

Nobody has been charged with any extra crime for using reloads (I don't see how they could be) but as Mas Ayoob and others have said, they will do everthing they can to make your use of reloads something that strengthens their case.

I would not recommend reloads in your carry gun, only for that reason. However, I do sometimes have reloads in the home defense gun. And if they want to make an issue of that, fine by me. "why did you use reloads to defend yourself?" "Because that was what was in the gun when I needed it, and I don't think my attacker would have given me a time out to change it."

If the shoot is valid self defense, it should not make it to court. But, if there is anything questionable, and it does go to court, if it becomes an issue you used reloads, odds are that won't be something in your favor in the jury's eyes. Certainly the DA will do what he can to make it so. Why give them the option?
 
Seems that the entire thing boils down to:

1) An overzealous DA could try to use them to hang you
2) Variation in the loading process can provide inconsistent results, which if it creates problems with your story, see 1
3) Unreliability.

For unreliability, I test my ammo, be it a reload or factory. For the first consideration, while I respect the opinions I've read on the topic, the only actual cases I've seen are ones where things were a little hinky anyway- I load to normal specs that are well within norms- not too hot, not too slow.

I understand the whole "use what the cops use," but I personally prefer the 1911 in .45ACP and not Glocks in .40 S&W, which is what I'd be left with if I took it to the logical conclusion. It depends on what you're willing to deal with; I have seen that I have a hard time finding factory ammo like I prefer (230 grain XTP with standard pressure loading, not +P), and the cost of SD ammo of similar quality is rather significant, so I roll my own.
 
Thanks, Nate45, for posting the above links. It saves everyone seriously interested in the question a lot of time.

Nate, while you say it appears to you that he may have murdered his wife, it didn't appear that way to the cops until the gunshot residue from the handloads didn't match that tested with factory loads bearing the same headstamp as the reloaded brass, in the crime lab. There was simply no other evidence against him. The defendant's attorneys both told me that they are convinced that he would never have been convicted, and probably not even charged, if not for the evidence admissibility issues the handloads created. Whatever you and I think, Nate, the attorneys who were there on the ground during the trial probably have the best handle on it.

There are several threads in the archives here at TFL (and at THR, GlockTalk, and most recently www.smith-wessonforum.com, that discuss this at great length. I for one see no need to rekindle the debate here. We'll all just say the same things that have already been said, things that are archived for anyone interested in the topic.

Only update I can give is that after all these heated threads on the topic, no one has yet put forth a case where a court DID take a defendant's word for what exact handload was in the gun when gunshot residue testing became an issue.

Still "carrying factory" for well documented reasons,
Mas
 
I love having reloads in my carry gun from a reliability and cost standpoint.

I've got Speer GDHP's in brand new Starline brass right now, in my 1911. If I were to adequately test retail Gold Dots to a level of satisfaction for reliability, it would cost me over $100.

Instead, it cost me $25.

My loads are SAAMI spec and come out looking nicer than retail SD ammo. I chamfer the case mouth, check case OAL, check seating OAL and make certain the crimp is enough to stop me from seating the bullet deeper with my thumb, but not so much that it crunches the case mouth.

Furthermore, I can shoot a few magazines of my carry ammo to test my sights regularly, or just to rotate it out. The cost is $0.25 per round instead of a buck. And I have complete confidence in my familiarity with it.

My goal isn't superduperdeathray ammo... it's having ammo that I can use at the range that is the same as the ammo I carry. My goal isn't to kill a bad guy "extra-dead"... it's to make sure I stay safe without that practice becoming an economic burden. Part of that practice is making sure that my gun continues to feed hollowpoint ammo despite take-downs for cleaning and re-assembly, or any gunsmithing work that may come up.

I consider it a priority to make sure I put 1 magazine of hollowpoints downrange every range session.
 
Mas Ayoob said:
Nate, while you say it appears to you that he may have murdered his wife, it didn't appear that way to the cops until the gunshot residue from the handloads didn't match that tested with factory loads bearing the same headstamp as the reloaded brass, in the crime lab. There was simply no other evidence against him. The defendant's attorneys both told me that they are convinced that he would never have been convicted, and probably not even charged, if not for the evidence admissibility issues the handloads created. Whatever you and I think, Nate, the attorneys who were there on the ground during the trial probably have the best handle on it.
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Mr. Ayoob, with all due respect, you are in no position to challenge my expertise and/or my knowledge of the NJ V. Bias case, after all I'm an anonymous poster on a chat forum, who's only knowledge of the case came from your post on THR. :p

Seriously though you are correct, I should not cast undue accusations, or assumptions of guilt at Mr. Bias without a more intimate knowledge of the facts.

I have previously stated in these debates, that advising people to use only factory ammo for defense is not bad advice and those that wish to be as safe from criminal prosecution and civil suit as possible should follow it. My only point of contention has always been, that it has very rarely ever been a factor in a legal case and those of us that are careful and practiced hand loaders are not in as much jeopardy as some might believe.
 
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