Why I love the 12 ga.

A shotgun is one tool in the toolbox. Used within its limitations it is an acceptable defensive weapon. It is also the most over rated weapon with many, many negatives. It's advantages are overblown and people are way too much influenced by what they have seen on TV and movies.

It's only real advantage is that it is the least expensive tool that provides an acceptable level of protection And with AR prices dropping like they are that gap is shrinking rapidly. The shotgun is all but obsolete in LE and military now and losing ground rapidly among the general population for good reason.
 
I'm kinda surprised by how many people would prefer an AR over a 12 gauge. I think people may be thinking as an overall defensive weapon, in which I may agree an AR is better. For home defense (I.E. Within the walls of my house) I could not see anything being better than a 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 00 Buck.

First, penetration. People always go to this but let's face it. If it won't penetrate a wall, it won't penetrate a bad guy.

Second, reliability. This is unlikely but if Murphy shows up, I'd trust a pump shotgun over ANY semiauto, be it AR, AK, etc. Pumps are just dead nuts reliable.

Finally, let's think about what is most likely to happen during a "home invasion". Most likely it's dark, the bad guy is unfamiliar with his surroundings and you know them well. He's most likely trying to stay hidden. When you do see him, it's most likely to be at a distance of 25 feet or less. At this range, even with just a knife, he is very dangerous. You have a short amount of time to STOP him. I don't care if it kills him, I want to STOP him. If I shoot him and he still has time to stab me, mission failed. So let's say I have time to make one clean shot. No contest as to which is more deadly at this range. I know, I know, follow up shots, blah blah blah. Try firing a weapon as loud and with as much flash as an AR in a dark house and see how many follow up shots you can get WITHOUT spraying bullets. Probably none I suspect.

Long rant, here's a summary: I want to make my first shot count the most. A 12 gauge simply delivers more per shot than a rifle.

All the other factors, such as lower cost, are just a bonus of the shotgun.
 
I want to make my first shot count the most. A 12 gauge simply delivers more per shot than a rifle
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I agree with this statement.

Shotguns also have an inherently higher hit probability per round fired.
 
And with AR prices dropping like they are that gap is shrinking rapidly. The shotgun is all but obsolete in LE and military now and losing ground rapidly among the general population for good reason
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jmr40,

With respect...Do you have any facts supporting these claims?

Not saying there are not people opting for the AR over the shotgun for HD, cause there is, just like people that have always preferred a pistol over an AR or a shotgun, but I'd have to see some data to support the claim that the 'gap' of the AR being chosen over the shotgun for HD is currently shrinking compared to what it has always been.


Too, as in Vietnam, when a recon unit was moving through the jungle, especially at night, and the 'point man' was usually carrying a shotgun, aren't many of the military units currently clearing houses in various countries have at least one member of the unit carrying a shotgun?

I ask this cause a nephew of my ex carried a shotgun while making these sweeps through houses in Iraq and Afghanistan and claims most of the units had one or two members armed with shotguns as well.

Far as LE goes, knowing a few LEO's on special units, I would miss my guess if I were to say the shotgun(in many situation such as raids on homes) has lost its popularity.

For those claiming the pump shotgun 'never breaks' and is always more reliable then the semi...well, some research may be needed. Pumps DO break!

And, more then not, failure due to short shucking and not an actual breakage will leave you standing there with a nice club.

As far as speed when comparing the pump-v-semi. No question about it, the semi is faster. That only means something when we can hit the target for as fast as we can pull the trigger under life threatening conditions.
The very reason our old friend, the very wise, late Dave McCracken's fav. response when asked "what can I put on my HD shotgun to make it more effective ?"... response from Dave "wear marks". :cool:
 
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A shotgun is one tool in the toolbox. Used within its limitations it is an acceptable defensive weapon. It is also the most over rated weapon with many, many negatives. It's advantages are overblown and people are way too much influenced by what they have seen on TV and movies.
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Are you sure your not confusing your statement with the AR? If anything, the AR is the most overrated weapon, with many negatives, with its advantages overblown and influenced by what people see on TV. The .223 is a mediocre round that fell into favor due to the ability to carry more ammunition on person, it's a varmint round in my opinion. The AR-15 has proven in military use to be awful for clearing houses, it's awful at long ranges, and it lacks penetration and barrier penetration when needed. Rounds that fragment when they hit there target is not something I am interested in. Like I said before, for close range home defense use give me a 12g, for mid to long range self defense use, give me a rifle in .308 like the M14/M1A. Overall, I think the .223 round sucks, and saying that military and LE use it is a bad argument. The people who are in charge of selecting weapons and ammunition for agencies usually aren't qualified to be making those decisions.

The shotgun is all but obsolete in LE and military now and losing ground rapidly among the general population for good reason.
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This is a false statement.
 
A shotgun has very few advantages over a M4 in combat. Sure, you can use it to breach, but it's much slower than a water impulse charge or linear charge with a greater chance of unintentially hurting someone. Outdoors, even in the close confines of a city you still have limited range and accuracy trying to hit people shooting at you from rooftops and windows. It's magazine capacity is extremely small and gets even more limited when you add all the speciality rounds. Unless we had a specific need, our shotgun was loaded *riot rubber buckshot (chambered), rubber sabot, birdshot, 00 buck, 00 buck, lead slug* if we were going into a *known* hotspot we'd swap it to *bird (chambered), bird, 00 buck, 00 buck, slug, slug*

We mostly used the non lethals on cars that came too close and donkeys on the side of the road that like to wander in front of the trucks as we drove by. We never used it to breach, as a water impulse charge or linear charge is much faster and creates a bit of a shot not unlike a flash grenade to help us maintain suprise.

I have seen shotguns used on entry teams, but I have never seen them actually needed.


This is why I love the 12 gauge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6CBKUM9gk8
 
I agree, for an all around combat weapon the M4 beats out a 12g shotgun, whether it be a pump or semi. But like I mentioned in previous post, for close quarters home defense I would still choose a 12g, for mid to long range I would choose something in .308 like an M1A/M14 or an AR10 even. Just not a fan of the .223 at all.
 
Home defense was the subject. In that case, 12 gauge wins.
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Whatever the least trained and most physically challenged shooter can successfully use is what wins - if that is a handgun, an M4, a 410 Judge loaded with 3-pellet 000 buck, or something else like a baseball bat or wasp spray
 
I"m sorry but I have to throw the BS flag here semi_problamatic. First off bird shot and slug ammunition is unauthorized ammo heck it's not even military issue. Using it is a good way to get yourself standing tall in front of the man. Being that I was an MLARM intstructor (since your probably with 4/10 I'm sure you know what MLARM is) breaching with a shotgun is quick, and causes way less collateral damage than either a linear flex charge or a water impulse. Using those are much slower than breaching with a shotgun, as you have to pull security as the breacher attaches either to the breach point. Then the stack has to move away from the blast radius. With a shotgun you don't have to do either.

Using rubber ammo of any type on vehicles is just down right foolish and is a good way to cause bad things to happen quick. That stuff is issued for crowd control and nothing more. The issued mossberg with the pistol grip is not a good weapon to rely upon for going into a *known* hotspot as accuracy is horrible past about 15 yards. The intended purpose of the pistol grip is to keep OAL length down so it's out of the way of your primary fighting weapon which is your M4.
 
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Not mine, but funny:

Step 1: Hold shotgun towards lock at sharp angle
Step 2: lean your face and upper body as far as you can possibly contort yourself away from shotgun
Step 3: squeeze buttcheeks and grimace like a little girl about to get punched in the face as you pull the trigger
Step 4: pick pieces of giant medieval iraqi lock out of your face and repeat as necessary


This:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=607_1211071378

Is not faster than this:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...d-2eByerydnOwmcEg&sig2=L6FM-OhCOkdtnl_yq3yQ3g

On breaching hazards:
Shotgun: If the shotgun muzzle is not held tightly against the door, splatter may occur that could affect friendly troops. Also, buckshot and rifled slugs can overpenetrate doors and may kill or wound occupants in the room

Water impulse: Explosive MOE has been perfected to such a degree that the secondary fragmentation from the door and the risk of over-pressure injuries to the hostages have been all but eliminated

http://cqb-team.com/breaching.php

And as far as rounds used/issued:

M1030 breaching SLUG
Mk 275
A001 CTG, 12 GAGE SKEET #9 SHOT PLASTIC CASE
A002 CTG, 12 GAGE TRAP/SKEET #7 1/2 SHOT PLASTIC CASE
A003 CTG, 12 GAGE TRAP/SKEET #8 SHOT PLASTIC CASE
A004 CTG, 12 GAGE TRAP/SKEET #8 1/2 SHOT PLASTIC CASE
A005 CTG, 12 GAGE SKEET #9 SHOT PLASTIC CASE
A006 CTG, 12 GAGE TRAP #8 SHOT PLASTIC CASE
A007 CTG, 12 GAGE TRAP #8 SHOT PLASTIC CASE
A019 CTG, 12 GAGE FLECHETTE
A020 CTG, 12 GAGE #4B BUCKSHOT XM/M257
A023 CTG, 12 GAGE 1 OZ SLUG

All military rounds.

The mossberg 500's we were issued came with pistol grips and regular stocks. After the first qual range, I didn't see a whole lot of pistol grips on shotguns. And we didn't use them for breaching, as I mentioned, prefering the use of water impulse charges. The shotguns mostly stayed on the trucks during missions; ie: donkeys and cars.

#8 and #9 are/can be used as breaching rounds. So can slugs. They're both still issued.

And as far as foolish things....well that was par for the course. My first depoloyment was OIF 1. Our training wasn't exactly stellar for what we encountered...

"is that an IED?"
"I dunno"
*bang bang*....."didn't explode..." *bang bang bang bang*
"guess not.."
*crunch crunch crunch kick*
"OH SH.....!!!!!"
.......
........
........
"guess it wasn't an IED"

So, say again? You can pick up your BS flag where it fell.

I know what you mean shortwave if only all shotguns came with that I might become a shotgun connoisseur
 
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