Why I ignore shot groups

Brian Pfeuger wrote:

I was surprised how shaky and uncertain it felt.

That is age my friend and there is nothing we can do about it!

I know how good of a field shot I used to be, and I know that at this time I'm not nearly as good. Some of that has to do with me not shooting in the field as much and some has to do with the fact my eyes, flexibility, and strength are not what they used to be. Shooting a rifle from a bench rest tells me that load A is better than loads B, C and D, and that is about it. I'll continue to bench my rifles though to make sure I'm using a load that I feel is overall the best for game I intend to hunt with it.
 
Maybe I missed bragging rights somewhere, but I always assumed that benched groups were for the purpose of determining the best expected potential performance that would be had from the combination of elements and not that it was a predictor of how a given shooter would perform in the field. I thought you shot for groups so that you would know what combination would give you the best chance of performing well in the field. That a shooter shoots 1/2 MOA off the bench and 7 MOA during a match or in the field are really two different considerations (assuming we aren't talking a benchrest competition, LOL).

I have seen this, however. A guy shooting his 1 MOA ammo (benched) and getting 4" groups offhand at 100 yards was still better than when he changed to 4 MOA (benched from same gun) ammo and shot 5-7" groups offhand.

I know that if I want to go hunting, I am not picking the 4 MOA (benched) ammo for the job.
 
Shooting groups with the rifle rested atop something on a bench and held by a human tells how well that human shoots that rifle with that ammo. All three are part of the equasion. Only rifles shooting in 100% return-to-battery free recoil (untouched by humans except for their 2 ounce trigger being lightly touched by the human) show what accuracy it and its ammo have.

There are hunters and competitors who can sight in their rifles from the standing position using only 1 shot from a good rifle shooting good ammo. They can also shoot several shots and see how accurate the rifle and ammo is. All from the standing position and the resultant group of a dozen or so shots fired may well be 4 MOA and none of them hit the center of the bullseye target they're aiming at. If the rifle and ammo really do shoot no worse than 1 MOA, they'll easily see it in that 4 MOA group 200 yards down range.
 
Bart, your right, but when I set a rifle in my sled,(with 48 lbs) it's usually just me and scope and trigger, not even faint forearm or shoulder involvement, but I am concerned with hunting rifles thus far, so I'm tickled with 3/4 moa out of sled, and if I shoot 2 inches around bull at 100, then i'm tickled.
Cause I hunt and strive to kill game with the first shot every time so my practice grouping is the real evidence of my talent... and when I get this move finished I will be back at the range and will post pics of just practice...:)
 
Another un-related observation: What a rifle does from the bench is totally un-related to what it does in field or match conditions.

Not totally un-related, but not the greatest factor in the system..... that'd be the shooter. As some of the other posters noted, the bench just tests the gun and load under ideal conditions .......it's best potential, maybe.

It'd be like a guy announcing that a top fuel funny car, because it had the fastest 0-60 speed (under ideal conditions) that the driver had ever seen, was the best car in any race......... change the race conditions, and it's not gonna be that impressive..... and even less so if that driver has never driven on dirt.
 
Hooligan1, note that zeros will be different when attained when the rifles shot in free recoil versus from the shoulder. There'll also be a difference between shoulder held from a bench and the four unsupported field positions; sitting, standing, kneeling or prone. But within those four unsupported field positions, there's not much difference in zeros; they're all within 1/2 MOA from each other for a given range.

But a given rifle held repeatably from shot to shot from any position will shoot just as accurate as it will from a free recoiling machine rest. Problem is, humans don't hold them totally, perfectly nor absolutely repeatable for each shot. And rarely do they present the same resistance amount and axis for each shot and that causes the barrel to point to different places on the target even when the firing pin smacks the primer and the barrel's pointed at the same place every time. The barrel axis moves a bit in all directions while the bullet's going down the hole in it.
 
I remember my introduction to XTC shooting... a guy came along watching me shoot a Garand from a benchrest. He said, "you can see how well your rifle shoots, would you like to see how well you shoot?" I spent several really great years shooting XTC, and some long range prone.

I left the sport when I stopped enjoying it, or having fun. That was about 13 years ago. Some guys take this all to seriously. Where I go for recreation, ain't nobody shooting back, and I have no desire to train for any such situation!

I'm now in process of building an F class rifle for fun, and for shooting from a bench. I hope to be able to shoot some good groups, and to shoot good scores, but depending on what is fun to me, I'll do what I like, what makes me happy. If group shooting does it, great. If shooting for points does it on a given day, great! To the extent that the other competitors are fun, happy, guys, I will have something in common with them, and we can all have a good time.

I really don't care about winning or doing better than other guys. I would like to see progress in my shooting, but if there is no progress, and if I'm enjoying myself, then I'll keep on shooting. -Heck, I don't mind shooting milsurps at clay pigeons while drinking a Gatorade and enjoying a nice day in the woods.

If I want serious competition, I'll go to work.

Smile. Be kind. Have fun. Laugh often.
 
Groups fired from the bench are also a good way to find out if technique is appropriate. If shots are missed in the field (for instance shooting ground hogs or prairie dogs) it is difficult to know what happened. You just missed. Range time is a great method of ironing out problems with shooting technique.

Kraig has great experience and for sure, the guy that was doing all of the talking about groups was kind of building his own ego up in advance. That is a sure way to fall on your rear end---brag it up before the show.
 
The last two pigs I shot were both 100 to 125 yards. Both shots were standing off-hand at walking pigs. The first one was a 225 pounder that went down immediately, I used my M70 in .270 Win. The second, about 100 pounds took a shoulder shot from a .308 and went about 50 yards before going down. I am in my 60's and not as steady as I was in my younger days, so I was pleased with both shots.
 
I've been using a telescoping monopod for both telephoto camera shots and field shooting and found that, especially from a stool or other handy perch, I can hold very steady. It helps me when shooting from my tent blind overlooking our large blueberry fields, because it allows accurate shots from the shoot-through (slit) window heights.

I rest my elbow(s) on my knees, holding the monopod with my left hand to make a pretty steady position. Taking sports photos, the unipod allows free horizontal panning and steady telephoto shots with a pocket camera and 24X zoom.

FYI: My unipod came from Walmart's sporting goods section and cost about $16. I actually bought another one recently that I use with a convex bicycle mirror attached (also from WalMart). The mirror attaches with a wrap-around velcro strap to bike handlebars, or a unipod. Last season, I used the rig, propped in the corner of the permanent ground blind, to see a nice deer about 80 yards behind me on the trail. Turning slowly, I took it through the lungs from my folding stool (arms unsupported). The rest top unscrews to reveal a camera mounting bolt.
 
A mate of mine bought a Caldwell lead sled that he conveniently leaves at my farm. Occasionally I use it when sighting in or comparing different loads, especially out of hard recoiling rifles. Difference is I would not "brag" about groups I shoot from the lead sled. Matter of fact is there is no one about to brag too (since my nearest neighbour is 8 mile away), but it does give me a reference point when free hand shooting of what the rifle is capable of.
 
I like shooting groups always have and always will.

When I started reloading mid 60's I set a goal for myself and it's never changed for hunting. If I miss it's me not my rifle doesn't matter what position I'm shooting from.

When I was shooting BR very few were hunters some shot varmints most conversation were about target rifles vs being around bunch of hunters. It's funny how hunters are always poking fun at guys shooting from the bench for what ever reason.
 
The groups that "matter" to me are the groups where the barrel is allowed to cool between each shot. Essentially, the idea is that you are testing cold-barrel, first-shot accuracy. To me, that's what matters most in a hunting rifle where second shots are, well...unlikely.
 
[The groups that "matter" to me are the groups where the barrel is allowed to cool between each shot. Essentially, the idea is that you are testing cold-barrel, first-shot accuracy. To me, that's what matters most in a hunting rifle where second shots are, well...unlikely.]

I admire someone who never misses, but most of us cannot say that. Accordingly, while the first shot from a cold barrel is most important, follow up shots are also important.
If the first shot is clearly out of the group, IF you need follow up shots you may not be able to place them precisely. I would not own a hunting rifle where the first shot was clearly out of the group.

I think some are like the guy who says, "I cannot shoot paper targets, but am good at game."

Jerry
 
Every once in a while this nugget of wisdom pops up on the internet. I think it is appropriate to repost here.



The Carlos Hathcock Method of Sighting in a Rifle as posted by Gus Fischer.

As mentioned before, I was a very young Marine Sergeant when I came up to THE Marine Corps Rifle Team the first time as the junior Armorer.

I didn't grow up using high power rifles. We used shotguns to hunt quail, rabbits, squirrels, pheasants, ducks and geese. I used a Mark I Ruger Target .22 pistol for racoon hunting and used a Model 74 Winchester .22 to really learn the basics of rifle marksmanship. My introduction to both high power shooting and long range shooting was in Marine Corps Boot Camp. On Qual Day in Boot Camp, I ran 7 consecutive bullseye's from the offhand position at 200 yards. The 8th round was a pinwheel bullseye, but it was on the target next to mine, so I got a maggie's drawers. Knee High wind got me after that and I fell apart and only shot Sharpshooter in boot camp.

I bought a sporterized Mauser in .308 with a scope on it from a fellow Marine during the time I was going through the Armorer's OJT program on Camp Pendleton. I used that for ground squirrel hunting, but was never really satisfied with my zero on the rifle. So after I came up on "The Big Team," I asked the second senior Armorer - Ted Hollabaugh, if he could show me how to REALLY sight in a rifle with a scope. He said sure and he would do it, but since we had all the talent in the world at MTU, why didn't I ask one of the shooters? Well, I was a young kid and I didn't know any of the shooters that well - most of them were much older than I. That's when he suggested I ask Carlos Hathcock for some help. I didn't know Carlos then and did not know of his exploits in NM and Sniper shooting. Ted talked to Carlos about it and Carlos stopped by the shop later that afternoon.

Carlos looked at me and said, "So you want to sight in your rifle, eh? OK, thoroughly clean the bore and chamber. Dry the bore out with patches just before you come down to Range 4 tomorrow at noon on the 200 yard line. Have the sling on the rifle that you are going to use in hunting." Then he went on about his business.

When I got to Range 4 the next day, he had a target in the air ready for me. He told me to get down in the best prone position I had. He checked me and adjusted my position just a bit. Then he said, "Before you shoot. The MOST important thing I want you to do is take your time and make it the best shot possible. It doesn't matter how long you take, just make it a good shot. ALSO, and this is as important, make sure you give me an accurate call on where you think the bullet hit the target." After I broke the shot, I told him where I thought the bullet had hit. He checked it by using a spotting scope when the target came back up. He grinned just slightly and said, "not a bad call." He then took a screwdriver and adjusted my scope a bit. He had me record everything possible about the shot and weather, humidity, temperature, wind, how I felt when the shot went off, what kind of ammo I was using, the date, and virtually everything about the conditions on the range that day. I had never seen such a complete and precise recording of such things in a log book. He told me that if a fly had gone by the rifle and farted while I was shooting, to make sure I recorded that. Then he told me to thoroughly clean the bore and chamber, and have it dry when I came back at 12 noon the next day. I was kind of surprised he only had me shoot once, but when you are getting free lessons - you don't question or argue.

The next day, he told me the same thing. I called the shot and it was closer to the center of the bullseye. He made another slight adjustment and told me to clean the bore and chamber, dry the bore thoroughly and come back the next day at noon. Then we recorded everything possible about that day. The following day, the shot was darn near exactly centered on the bullseye. Then he told me to clean and dry the bore before coming back the next day. Then we recorded everything about that day.

About a week into the process, Ted asked me how it was going. I said it was going really well, but we were only shooting one shot a day. Ted grinned and said, "How many shots do you think you are going to get at a deer? Don't you think you had better make the first one count?" There was a level of knowledge and wisdom there that I immediately appreciated, though I came to appreciate it even more as time went on.

We continued this process with the sitting position at 200 yards, then prone and sitting at 300 yards and 400 yards. Then we went down to 100 yards and included offhand in the mix. Each day and each shot we recorded everything possible in the book and that included the sight settings for each positon at each yard line. We also marked the scope adjustment settings with different color nail polish for each yard line.

When that was over after a few weeks, I thought I had a super good zero on the rifle. But no, not according to Carlos. He started calling me up on mornings it was foggy, rainy, windy, high or low humidity, etc., etc. and we fired a single shot and recorded the sight settings and everything else about the day. (I actually used four or five log books by the time we were through and put that info all into one ring binder.) I almost had an encyclopedia on that rifle. Grin.

Well, after a few months, we had shot a single round in most every kind of condition there was. Then about the 12th of December, it was REALLY cold and it seemed like an artic wind was blowing, there was about four inches of snow on the ground and freezing rain was falling. He called me up and told me to meet him at Range 4 at noon. I had gotten to know him well enough to joke, "Do you really want to watch me shoot in this kind of weather? He chuckled and said, "Well, are you ever going to hunt in this kind of weather?" I sighed and said, "See you at noon."

By the next spring, I had records for sight settings for the first shot out of a "cold" barrel for almost any weather, position and range I would use and temperature/wind/humidity condition imagineable. He had informed me months before that was bascially how he wanted all Marine Snipers to sight in their rifles as only the first shot counts, though of course they would do it out to 700 yards on a walking target and further on a stationary target. They also practiced follow up shots, of course and we did some of that as well. It gave me great confidence that I could dial in my scope for anything I would come across.
 
I admire someone who never misses, but most of us cannot say that. Accordingly, while the first shot from a cold barrel is most important, follow up shots are also important.
Never did I say I never miss. I'm a reasonably good shot, but no superman. What I'm saying is that it's rare indeed that I get a second shot after a clean miss. Usually the critter is long gone by the time I've got the next round chambered.
 
Carlos Hathcock had a very different requirement than a hunter of big game.
When I checked my hunting rifle shortly before the hunting season I did not clean the barrel.
Jerry
 
One observation of mine wearing out more than a few barrels. . .

Commercial factory barrels' bores are rough enough that a few to several shots are needed before bullets consistantly hit point of aim. Such barrels also walk shots away from point of aim as they get hot.

Quality custom barrels properly installed in actions put the first bullet from a clean, cold barrel to point of aim as do all other bullets fired as the barrel heats up to really hot. Same barrel, not cleaned, shot the next day shoots all bullets the same.
 
My rifles, some with custom barrels and some without, all shoot where I want them to from a cold and mildly fouled barrel. It took some time to find the right bullet and powder combinations, and even to find the right amount of fouling. And...it took a lot of shooting of groups to find the sweet spots. No way around that, no matter what some say. That said, I'm only shooting at 100 to 300 yards normally.

One very interesting thing worth noting is that my Ruger Hawkeye in 223 did tend to foul a bit (copper), but with the rounds I've put through it in the last couple of years, it doesn't collect copper any more. That did surprise me.
 
In my opinion, the bench is perfect for zeroing the rifle. But to attain mastery of the rifle, shooting from multiple field positions is very important. Being able to consistantly strike an empty one gallon paint can at 200 yards is the hallmark of very good field marksmanship.

Jack
 
Back
Top