Why I ignore shot groups

I don't ignore groups when I'm proving a new-to-me rifle or load.

I do ignore groups when I'm trying to hit something offhand or from field positions. If I don't hit it on the first shot, it's a failure pure and simple.
 
I always bench my rifles when I first get them, both to zero the sights and to try different ammo setups to see what the potential is for the gun's accuracy. Then when I'm shooting off-hand or semi supported, I can tell just how bad I am and know it's not the gun, it's the trigger puller.:)
The bench only shooters are enjoying the sport in their own way and that's fine with me. I have a fine Remington 700 PSS that was worked over by a master gunsmith in my area, and with my handloads is a one ragged hole maker...on the bench. Off hand, well, let's say it gets heavy in a hurry and the barrel gets hot and the humidity is too high and it wanders a bit.;)
The beautiful thing about our sport is that it does offer many facets to pursue and much enjoyment to be had for anyone that wants to learn different disciplines.
Just my .00002 worth:)
Hobie
 
What a rifle does from the bench is totally un-related to what it does in field or match conditions

That's wrong. What the rifle does from the bench is exactly what the rifle can do in the field or in a match. What the shooter does from the bench is unrelated to what the shooter does in a match. And your 7moa shooter in question, imagine what his groups would have been if he had been shooting a load that shot 3MOA from the bench, or 6, or...
 
603Country said:
I'm siding with Geetarman. I don't ignore shot groups. To not shoot groups or ignore groups is ridiculous. If you don't even occasionally shoot groups, how in the world will any decent hunter know where the rifle is shooting

Oh, I shoot groups occasionally, normally during this time of year. It gives me something to do on these long summer days when it's too danged hot to go to the hunting lease. One habit I've gotten into, (from one of the gun writers, I forget who. Mighta been Grits Gresham) is what I call the One Shot Group. Normally, in late June or early July, I'll settle on the whitetail load and rifle I'm going to use for the upcoming season. Then, when I go to the range, I'll take that rifle and one round of ammo. (There will be other firearms for recreation). Then, I'll post a target and fire that one round. All I'm interested in is that cold-bore shot. Then, when I get home, I'll start building a composite target and over the course of several one-shot groups, I'll plot those shots on a target. After six or seven range trips I'll have that rifle tweaked to the point where I know exactly where that first shot is going.

I've got one composite target with over 50 shots on it. Surprisingly that rifle throws everything from 60 grain varmint bullets to 107 grain deer bullets into a 3" circle.
 
In my 60 years of shooting, I've shot many different competitions with rifle, handgun, and shotgun. I also won about a hundred informal turkey (target) shoots, both offhand and prone, plus the "Best Da_ned Shot in Maine" competition.

I believe that good bench technique can translate to accurate field shooting. To mimic field shooting conditions, soft benchrest bags seem better than hard ones. After sighting in, I often shoot offhand at 200 meters at gongs or clay targets on the bank to check my field zero.

One day, I was sighting in my .270 Win from the bench next to a guy who was a CF benchrest competitor with his match rifle. The .270 shot some nice groups at 100, then I stood up and fired a 5-shot group offhand that was about 1 1/2". The guy said he was impressed with the bench groups, but was absolutely floored by the offhand shooting. He said he'd never fired offhand.

Knowing what a rifle can do and checking ballistics tables against real life conditions is important to accurate field shooting from any position and (reasonable) game distances.

("You gotta know your limitations." Dirty Harry)
 
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Picher's pretty good for a newbie. :D:D:D (I got into the .22 bidness in 1940.)

I've always tried to keep it simple, being sorta simple-minded: The bench can tell you about the rifle and ammo. Away from the bench, it's all about the shooter.
 
I never shot competition. All my interest was on hunting. My own standards for my big game rifles were that they must group 3 shots in 1.5 inches or less at 100 yards.

I one had a 30-06 that would not group under 2 inches. I took it to the range along with a rifle that would group 1 inch. Shooting from a sitting position with a tight sling there was no difference in the groups at 300 yards. I found I could group 2 minutes from sitting out to 500 yards, and I could do it with a 2 min rifle or a 1 min rifle.
This was on a firing range, and sitting on the side of a mountain I am sure I could not do as well.

I never missed an animal due to inaccurate rifles, but have shot over them at long range due to overestimating the range. No rangefinders in my day.

Whatever one is satisfied with will probably take all the game he is capable of bagging.
I admit I prefer accurate rifles, but it is not critical within reason, and I would rather have a light rifle that was 1.5 minute rifle than a real tack driver that weighed 8-9 pounds with scope. Of course the cartridge dictates weight to some extent also.

Jerry
 
Another un-related observation: What a rifle does from the bench is totally un-related to what it does in field or match conditions.


Shooter Kraig, Shooter!
 
I never worry about anyone elses groups unless I'm teaching them how to shoot a rifle they are not familiar with... But the Captains right and I dont get hung up on my practice groups as much as my data groups.;)
 
If it shoots poorly from the bench it will shoot poorly in the field. So in principle I disagree that there is not some connection. I would not go hunting with a rifle that would only group 3 inches at 100 yards.
I doubt that anyone would take it to a match.

So I don't ignore shot groups, but they do not tell the whole story as to what one can do in the field. After all there is a shooter behind the rifle, and he has his own limitations.
Also, from the bench one might learn that the first shot from a cold barrel is far away from the group made by the next rounds. That says that if I miss the first shot or only wound the animal I might not be able to finish it at long range.

Jerry
 
I like the fact that my AK will shoot sub-2" 5-shot 100 yard groups from a rest, but what really makes me smile is demonstrating that I can make consistent 25-yard head and neck shots from a standing position with the same rifle (as in 20 of 20 shots) at a cadence of about one shot every 2 seconds. In a way, just as challenging (both situations with iron sights) but it just seems a lot more like practical shooting.
 
I am no authority on Carlos Hathcock.Could be I am wrong,but it seems I heard something about the rifle he got business done with was good for about 3 MOA.

A whole lot have deer have been killed with "deer rifles" and a lot of deer rifles get business done shoot about 3 moa.

Generally,the standard for a military battle rifle is about 3 moa.

IMO,a whole lot of serious rifle work can be done with a 3moa battle rifle,especially since the original topic is set to a CMP vintage clinic.

CMP Garands make for a pretty level playing field.I doubt very many of them shoot much better than 2 moa,and my unimformed guess is CMP does not ship many that won't do 3 moa.Everybody has the same sights and a military trigger.

Kraig is trying to pass on the skills and experience he has.He is going out of his way to teach regular folks how to poke holes.
If a person will practice what kraig is teaching,they can use any rifle on the line,any service grade M-1,any Springfield or SMLE,handloads or Greek surplus from CMP,lay down,sling up and put them in the black.

In the context of what Kraig is doing,it can't be bought.You just can't buy what Kraig is trying to give.

Given equal skill levels,at an introductory clinic,it does not matter a didly if you show up with a well worn rack grade 3 moa bayonet pole or a National Match grade Kreiger barreled 1 moa piece that you can't pick up by the forend.Remember,the diameter of a group is created by the radius times two.The difference from center is 1/2 in for a 1 moa rifle and 1 1/2 in for a three moa rifle.The difference is one inch.OK

If bayonet pole shooter shoots a 5 in group in the black,and tackdriver shooter shoots a 5 in group in the black,bayonet pole shooter is doing everything better than tackdriver shooter.

If you are a tackdriver shooter shooting 7 moa,it is time to stop being distracted by hardware.Put that rifle down,if necessary.With a worn,GI rack gun,position,natural point of aim,breathing,sighting,trigger squeeze,follow through...dry fire,practice,and you will poke holes in the black.

The other stuff is great,but its in a different class,at a different school.
 
Theoretically speaking, if a rifle and shooter consistently make 2-inch group at 100 yards, about 2/3rds of shots will be less than 3/4" from the center and the remainder will be not farther than 1 inch from group center.

Group size is not as important as sighting a rifle in to allow bullets to hit along a prescribed trajectory. A 1/2 minute-grouping rifle sighted to hit center at 100 yards, when the maximum target/game to be shot at will be at, say 350 yards is not a good strategy. Depending on cartridge, the bullet at 350 yards could easily be 15 inches low and every shot could miss a deer.

It's better to sight-in for groups to be centered where the Point Blank trajectory (+/- 3") should be at a point on the curve for that cartridge/load, out to the maximum distance to be encountered when hunting/shooting. For my cartridge/load, it's about 2" high at 200 yards.

I chronograph my loads, use a computerized ballistics program and take into account how temperature affects velocity, elevation and trajectory (but check actual performance under hunting conditions).

One shot; one kill.
 
While the basic premise is sound there are plenty of holes to fill for both camps. Great form and technique can not compensate for a poor rifle or load. A 3 moa gun/load ain't gonna shoot 2 moa from a great field position shooter let alone a poor one. Vice versa though and it's true, you put a 3 moa gun into a great shooters hand and he'll out shoot a poor shooter with a 1 moa gun all day long. But you set that 1 moa gun in the great shooters hand and he'll do even better. So are groups, guns and loads irrelevant? Not buy a long shot.

Personally experience has led me to the fact that the AVERAGE shooter doesn't have the time or money to become all that proficient from field positions. I'm not saying the they shouldn't practice but when the chips are down the average shooter ain't gonna hit crap very far away. That's why I preach using/finding shooting rests right along side proper technique. I don't care if your choice is a bipod, shooting sticks, day pack, tree branch, fallen logs, whatever............. knowing how to use em and where to find em in the field is just as important for the average shooter.

IMO most shooter that don't use a rest in the field for shots over 100 yards are just pissin into the wind. To each his own though........

Now I fully expect to read all sorts of long shot stories without rests....... "I did this", "Dad did that", "Uncle John made this", etc etc. Great! Nice shooting. But for some reason we never hear about the bad shots and I've seen a lot more of them. Had plenty myself. I'll take a below average shooter using some form of rest over an above average shooter without any day of the week.
 
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love reading this stuff... you guys are awesome...

... as you may know, I've got a "few" guns, & my own range ( 300 yards ) but grew up in a zero gun household... had to beg & plead to get a single shot .410 when I was in high school...

most of my adult life, I've been trying to "learn" how to shoot... I'm not a "natural" I spend as much time on my range as time allows, been to an Appleseed shoot ( highly recommend those as well ) personally, I like to hunt, but will grab a "field rest" every chance I get... I feel I can now "hold my own" prone, or with a field rest, but standing or sitting ( using the sling ) I'm not good enough to qualify as a "rifleman"

wish some of you guys lived closer... be great to get together & shoot, pick up some more tips, & practice, as well as meet each other :)
 
I don't discount groups but I do believe exactly as Art said. The groups on a rest on the bench will tell me what the gun can do. Other types of shooting tell me what I can do.

I used to be a much better off-hand and "field" shooter than I am now. I hunted woodchucks regularly with a 10/22 and such hunting regularly requires unassisted off-hand head shots at 50 yards and sometimes more. I was pretty good.

I quit hunting with the 22 and got a .204. That gun routinely shoots 1/2MOA or better at 100. Most all shots are prone or at least kneeling with a bi-pod. I can quite easily kill woodchucks with that gun at over 300 yards and have no doubt I could much farther, I just don't have any place to do it. It groups around 3/4MOA at 400 yards and that's usually 1/4MOA or less vertical and 3/4 horizontal, as I'm not so great with the wind.

Last weekend I had occasion to shoot the 10/22 at some woodchucks where I didn't want to use the "big" gun. Kneeling shots at 30 yards or so with a scope. I was surprised how shaky and uncertain it felt.

I'm pretty sure I need one of those Appleseed events to straighten me up.:o
 
Sometimes...after toiling in the hot sun most of the week --- while working in construction/surveying --- I like to go to the range too rest and relax, which includes shooting off the bench. That is why they put the "rest" in bench rest...isn't it?:D
 
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