Why hasn't Beretta been booted out?
- Thread starter Will Beararms
- Start date
Frank the Spank
New member
holo, LOL!
Personally I liked the USP 40 enough to buy it, and I've fired a REAL NICE 1911 and it shot nicely. Where I am going with this is that it all comes down to personal preference. I don't understand why everyone rides glocks and HK's for the nonmetal body. They put the bullet in the x ring and thats all that matters. If they don't it might be the person. If I buy a gun then of course I am betting my life that it will perform, otherwise I wouldn't have bought it. Anyways I just wanted to add another perspective and support the ones I agree with.
Why a 9 or a 40 or the 45? Personal preference.
Why a 9 or a 40 or the 45? Personal preference.
Covert Mission
New member
re:
The real answer really is simple and it's all about Congressionally appropriated funding. DoD has made a major investment in thousands of Beretta 92s and in all the logistics elements - spare parts, depot tooling and facilities,...required to support them. If they were to switch now to a better 9mm, most of this investment would be lost..."
That's never stopped the FBI from changing their issue duty gun every 5 minutes!
[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited November 22, 1999).]
The real answer really is simple and it's all about Congressionally appropriated funding. DoD has made a major investment in thousands of Beretta 92s and in all the logistics elements - spare parts, depot tooling and facilities,...required to support them. If they were to switch now to a better 9mm, most of this investment would be lost..."
That's never stopped the FBI from changing their issue duty gun every 5 minutes!
[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited November 22, 1999).]
Frank the Spank
New member
Didn't the FBI just go from Sigs to H&K's?
heh.. like ya said... they change every minute.
maybe the FBI agents in The Matrix weren't so far off in shooting Desert Eagles, LOL
-Frank the Spank
heh.. like ya said... they change every minute.
maybe the FBI agents in The Matrix weren't so far off in shooting Desert Eagles, LOL
-Frank the Spank
KY-Midnight
New member
I agree 
Give 'em 50s They'd at least enjoy it more and maybe the enemy'd be more scared by bigger bullets missing them
Give 'em 50s They'd at least enjoy it more and maybe the enemy'd be more scared by bigger bullets missing them Frank the Spank
New member
HAHAHA, now now now... are you sayin FBI agents can't shoot?
hehehe
hehehe
A tidbit - when Beretta issued the first "test units" to the DOD they did not prepare a special set of weapons for the qualification tests as Glock and SIG did.
They actually rolled dice and picked the serial numbers right out of normal stock.
No changes, no special modifications. The M9, while maybe not favored by some of you, has proven to be a very durable and reliable weapon.
CMOS
They actually rolled dice and picked the serial numbers right out of normal stock.
No changes, no special modifications. The M9, while maybe not favored by some of you, has proven to be a very durable and reliable weapon.
CMOS
BrokenArrow
New member
I can't stand it!
Jumped to the end to skip all the crap I'm sure must be up there.
The Beretta was the most reliable pistol in every test it was entered in. Twice as reliable as the SIG in the first (1/2000 v 1/1000) and equal in the last (1/15000 in the M11 trials) and four times as reliable as the M1911A1 in the first (1/2000 v 1/450).
The Glock was never tested in the M9, M10, M11 trials.
Latest specs show 168K through 12 guns with 5 jams; better than 1/30000.
Funny how when the military learned how to measure chamber pressure of the ammo properly the slides stopped breaking?
Contract called for a service life of 5K rounds. They are avg 20K for locking blocks, 35K for frames, 75K plus for slides and barrels. The SIG doesn't do any better, usually a tad less.
USN testing showed the Beretta and SIG more reliable than the Glock. Their new favorite is the USP. MK 23 is a special purpose tool nobody is crazy about (it works great; just kinda big).
INS/BP testing of 40 caliber pistols was much tougher than the FBIs. The Beretta, SIG, HK were better than the Glock. Why Beretta and SIG are authorized, and Glock is not. Plainclothes will start using the HK USP compact.
They are all good guns. Use the one you like, don't trash the rest.
They all work as well as you do.
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[This message has been edited by BrokenArrow (edited November 27, 1999).]
Jumped to the end to skip all the crap I'm sure must be up there.
The Beretta was the most reliable pistol in every test it was entered in. Twice as reliable as the SIG in the first (1/2000 v 1/1000) and equal in the last (1/15000 in the M11 trials) and four times as reliable as the M1911A1 in the first (1/2000 v 1/450).
The Glock was never tested in the M9, M10, M11 trials.
Latest specs show 168K through 12 guns with 5 jams; better than 1/30000.
Funny how when the military learned how to measure chamber pressure of the ammo properly the slides stopped breaking?
Contract called for a service life of 5K rounds. They are avg 20K for locking blocks, 35K for frames, 75K plus for slides and barrels. The SIG doesn't do any better, usually a tad less.
USN testing showed the Beretta and SIG more reliable than the Glock. Their new favorite is the USP. MK 23 is a special purpose tool nobody is crazy about (it works great; just kinda big).
INS/BP testing of 40 caliber pistols was much tougher than the FBIs. The Beretta, SIG, HK were better than the Glock. Why Beretta and SIG are authorized, and Glock is not. Plainclothes will start using the HK USP compact.
They are all good guns. Use the one you like, don't trash the rest.
They all work as well as you do.
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[This message has been edited by BrokenArrow (edited November 27, 1999).]
BrokenArrow,
Can you cite sources for your information?
01paw,
"From what I've heard, Glock beat the price, but didnt quite pass muster on reliability ( believe it, glocksters. I heard it from a sgt who was on the qualification team)"
Not quite. Gaston Glock decided not to enter his design into the XM9 trials. This information from Peter Kokalis obtained during a trip to Austria and conversations with Gaston Glock himself: "...the revolutionary Glock 17 pistol was withheld from the U.S. XM9 trials at the behest of its inventor, Gaston Glock, who would not accept U.S. government requirements to release the winning contender's production and patent rights to open bidding." (http://www.remtek.com/arms/glock/model/9/17/index.htm)
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So many pistols, so little money.
Can you cite sources for your information?
01paw,
"From what I've heard, Glock beat the price, but didnt quite pass muster on reliability ( believe it, glocksters. I heard it from a sgt who was on the qualification team)"
Not quite. Gaston Glock decided not to enter his design into the XM9 trials. This information from Peter Kokalis obtained during a trip to Austria and conversations with Gaston Glock himself: "...the revolutionary Glock 17 pistol was withheld from the U.S. XM9 trials at the behest of its inventor, Gaston Glock, who would not accept U.S. government requirements to release the winning contender's production and patent rights to open bidding." (http://www.remtek.com/arms/glock/model/9/17/index.htm)
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So many pistols, so little money.
BrokenArrow
New member
Cite sources? I have a real life ya know.
Retired Master Sergeant, US Air Farce, worked w a guy who was involved w original USAF testing of 9mm pistols in the 70s that got it all started, and JSSAP (Joint Services Small Arms Project).
Just stuff I've heard from people who were _really_ there, and read over the yrs from various mil and civilian sources.
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Retired Master Sergeant, US Air Farce, worked w a guy who was involved w original USAF testing of 9mm pistols in the 70s that got it all started, and JSSAP (Joint Services Small Arms Project).
Just stuff I've heard from people who were _really_ there, and read over the yrs from various mil and civilian sources.
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Covert Mission:
With respect, I stand by my initial analysis:
a) The FBI's budget does not receive the level of scrutiny that DoD's does; during the last years "crime prevention" has faired FAR better in Congressional funding deliberations than "war fighting".
b) Re-equipping all Special Agents with a new semiautomatic pistol represents a only VERY small fraction of the end-item and logistics support costs a new DoD-wide sidearm would drive.
c) The "Miami incident" was a significant catalyst for much recent FBI rearming; there is no comparably tragic "sidearms" event within DoD . . . . and there probably never will be, since the pistol is a VERY incidental part of the Services' combined arms capabilities, whereas the average FBI agent may "come to the fight" with only his sidearm.
[This message has been edited by RWK (edited November 30, 1999).]
With respect, I stand by my initial analysis:
a) The FBI's budget does not receive the level of scrutiny that DoD's does; during the last years "crime prevention" has faired FAR better in Congressional funding deliberations than "war fighting".
b) Re-equipping all Special Agents with a new semiautomatic pistol represents a only VERY small fraction of the end-item and logistics support costs a new DoD-wide sidearm would drive.
c) The "Miami incident" was a significant catalyst for much recent FBI rearming; there is no comparably tragic "sidearms" event within DoD . . . . and there probably never will be, since the pistol is a VERY incidental part of the Services' combined arms capabilities, whereas the average FBI agent may "come to the fight" with only his sidearm.
[This message has been edited by RWK (edited November 30, 1999).]
Al Thompson
Staff Alumnus
As far as the Glock in JSSAP tests, IIRC, there were two requirements that the Glocks didn't meet. One was for a restrike capability and the other was for a hammer drop device.
As far as actual numbers, (don't have my Army Greenbook handy) you might be surprised to note that there are more cops in NYC than infantrymen in the military. I would be flabbergasted if there were more than 300,000 handguns in the military as a whole.
Giz
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Vote Democratic! 1 Billion Chinese can't be wrong......
As far as actual numbers, (don't have my Army Greenbook handy) you might be surprised to note that there are more cops in NYC than infantrymen in the military. I would be flabbergasted if there were more than 300,000 handguns in the military as a whole.
Giz
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Vote Democratic! 1 Billion Chinese can't be wrong......
There is a total of less than 100,000 infantrymen (and special ops troops) in the US military. Then there are that ratio of about 1/3 artillerymen, even less for the tankers and combat engineers, think of the very few pilots there are so there are not many people that actually train to kill on a dailey basis.
The pistol is such a small part of military actions, face it even the riflemen normally cause less than 10% of battlefield casualties. It is all those other people that are part of the combined arms team, destroying, neutralizing and suppressing so the riflemen get close, that accomplish most of the actual destruction and killing.
The pistol is such a small part of military actions, face it even the riflemen normally cause less than 10% of battlefield casualties. It is all those other people that are part of the combined arms team, destroying, neutralizing and suppressing so the riflemen get close, that accomplish most of the actual destruction and killing.
In my opinion the bottom line is that berettas serves the miltary needs the best.
1.) they are super reliable. As far as the
slide break goes, those SEALS were using those super hot nato rounds which kick at at least 2x as much psi than berettas are specked to handle. Beretta fixed this problem. Try firing that heat trough a glock
2) Berettas are safe. While I don't know how the SIGS safety operates. I am very familiar with the Beretta, 1911, HKs and Glocks. You can safely carry Beretta and 1911 cocked and locked (I trust Berettas a tad more than 1911). But try that sh%t with a glock and you take your life in your hands. The military frowns on AD's in training.
3) They are reliable the same can be said about sig seeing as how they also passed the test.
4) they are cheap or rather cheaper than sigs. As it came down to these two in the very end.
And remeber the military did this test more than once. First the air force, then the Army threw out all of the air forces data did the test AGAIN I believe that others guns were allowed into the test as well as having original contestants rework there original entry's. Beretta won again.
Glock did not want to give up his manufacture info as stated in an earlier post and chose not to enter.
So there. this is how it happend and aside from the slide failer problem there has been no problem with the beretta's so why should they change??
As far as the FBI goes They change every week. It's like a friggin gun of the week the last I heard was that they went to Glocks
Next month maybe it'll be HK's
1.) they are super reliable. As far as the
slide break goes, those SEALS were using those super hot nato rounds which kick at at least 2x as much psi than berettas are specked to handle. Beretta fixed this problem. Try firing that heat trough a glock
2) Berettas are safe. While I don't know how the SIGS safety operates. I am very familiar with the Beretta, 1911, HKs and Glocks. You can safely carry Beretta and 1911 cocked and locked (I trust Berettas a tad more than 1911). But try that sh%t with a glock and you take your life in your hands. The military frowns on AD's in training.
3) They are reliable the same can be said about sig seeing as how they also passed the test.
4) they are cheap or rather cheaper than sigs. As it came down to these two in the very end.
And remeber the military did this test more than once. First the air force, then the Army threw out all of the air forces data did the test AGAIN I believe that others guns were allowed into the test as well as having original contestants rework there original entry's. Beretta won again.
Glock did not want to give up his manufacture info as stated in an earlier post and chose not to enter.
So there. this is how it happend and aside from the slide failer problem there has been no problem with the beretta's so why should they change??
As far as the FBI goes They change every week. It's like a friggin gun of the week the last I heard was that they went to Glocks
Next month maybe it'll be HK's
Beretta Boy
New member
Besides that, "Will", they are not "EYE-talion" made... one of the reasons the government gave Beretta the contract, is because Beretta agreed to open a factory in the US... And do you really think that they would replace the 1911 if it had NO problems whatsoever? Hey, gov. does stupid stuff sometimes, but give me a break.
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"...you're thinkin was that 5 shots or was it 6? Well, you've gotta ask yourself one question: Do you feel lucky??? ...Well, do ya PUNK!?!?
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"...you're thinkin was that 5 shots or was it 6? Well, you've gotta ask yourself one question: Do you feel lucky??? ...Well, do ya PUNK!?!?
Will Beararms,
I believe you are actually defending the Beretta M9/92FS if I am correct. I have owned an Italian and U.S. made Beretta 92 and a recent civilian M9 edition. I believe the government made a wise choice. The 92F is reliable, accurate, and user friendly. The size of the pistol is the only potential disadvantage I can see. I believe that was a major consideration in the purchase of the Sig 228/M11 for limited use. The 1911-A1 is a great sidearm. The military wanted a "wondernine" and the Beretta is an excellent choice. I own a Sig 228 also. I would trust either 9mm or the .45 to do its intended job. Now, what's the scoop on the Bradley fighting vehicle?
I believe you are actually defending the Beretta M9/92FS if I am correct. I have owned an Italian and U.S. made Beretta 92 and a recent civilian M9 edition. I believe the government made a wise choice. The 92F is reliable, accurate, and user friendly. The size of the pistol is the only potential disadvantage I can see. I believe that was a major consideration in the purchase of the Sig 228/M11 for limited use. The 1911-A1 is a great sidearm. The military wanted a "wondernine" and the Beretta is an excellent choice. I own a Sig 228 also. I would trust either 9mm or the .45 to do its intended job. Now, what's the scoop on the Bradley fighting vehicle?