Why does refinishing stock reduce value?

R

rhinonewshooter

New member
Let's assume that most O/Us out there are not for collectors. they are being used to varying degrees and are being purchased to be used.

Over the weekend I bought a japanese made 30 inch Winchester 101. The bluing is in great shape, action is tight, Briley threaded it so it now has thinned walled chokes, it has a full set of sub gauge tubes as well as a NASCO case. Oh, and it fits me very well:). The finish on the wood, however, was chipping off on the butt and the foreend. The film finish that was still attached was cloudy.

I took the shotgun apart, and have stripped the old finish off with a chemical stripper, have stained the walnut back to the original color, and have applied a few coats of tru-oil and should have another 5-10 coats applied in the next week.

The stock will look infinitely better than it did with the factory poly finish - yet it has a lower value. What's the rationale??
 
The big thing is, it's no longer original. But, if it needed refinishing then you didn't hurt the value, possibly increased it. But it won't ever be worth what an original gun is worth. It's like an old car, if it's in great shape and all original then it's worth more than one that's been restored. But that restored car is worth much more than a beat up, rusted car needing alot of work.
 
If it has been threaded for Brileys, the it is not original anyway - glad your 101 fits; for most folks the stock design and dimensions just beat the snot out of you.

PERSONALLY, I find the whole thing about refinishing ridiculous - as mentioned above, why should a 1963 split rear window that's been sitting decaying in a garage for 40 years be worth more than one that someone sunk $BIG BUCKS into restoring a similar one?

There ARE exceptions to the gun restoration business - IF it has been done by a name of exceptional work, like Doug Turnbull, the value can go up - but those folks are few and far between
 
If you do a good job on the refinishing ...it won't reduce the value much - if at all....over another used gun in as good a condition as yours refinished.

I used this product on a Browning Citori 525 series...a few yrs ago ...because the original Browning finish was an oil finish that did not hold up in rain ...and the original finish had become so dark and muddy looking, the wood lost its character.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=5531/Product/PRO-CUSTOM-OIL-GUNSTOCK-FINISH

I got full value out of the gun when I sold it ...refinished it looked better than new guns out of a box...( and that's what the buyer told me too ).

I've refinished 4 or 5 old Browning Citori Lightning field grade model guns over the last 10 yrs....and each of them is worth twice what I paid for them now ...and my buddy that runs a used gun shop / says he'll be happy to take any of them off my hands if I want to sell them ( I took 2 of them in to show him the results on the refinish / that took me about 6 weeks for each gun )...

I pick up these older Citori models, when I find them, especially if they've been dropped and all scratched up .../ if they're mechanically in good shape - and refinish them primarily as training guns, or guns I'll give to some of the grandkids down the road. As some of the newer Browning Citori models ...like the XS Skeet, continue to go up in price, I'll do the same to used versions of that model ...if I happen to find one at a good price.
 
For a shooter, it probably doesn't reduce value. But for a collector it generally does. Collectors don't want your interpretation of what a gun should look like...they want it original, warts and all. So...while you may well get your money back and even score a nice profit in a resale situation, what you've done is reduce the pool of buyers who might be interested.
 
Production made shotguns .....Winchester 101's ....Browning O/U's in the Citori line at least... most Beretta O/U's .../ most Perazzi or even Krieghoff O/U's .....are not collectors items...

Most of them have increased in value over the last 25 yrs ...some significantly ...but they're still production made guns / not real custom guns ...or guns that will get a "collector" excited. Some of them are expensive / many of them are easily over $ 3K today new ...but they're still production made guns.

We're not talking about some rare Pigeon Grade Purdey's here ...where some heavily engraved models may sell for over $ 100,000 ...to somebody that just wants to polish it ...and put it in his collection.../ yes, it would be a sin to refinish a gun like that ....but with all due respect to the OP here, we're talking about a Win 101 ...or any of the 15 or so Browning Citori's that I own...nothing in my collection / that could not be refinished...???

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Shotguns 11-10-08 015.jpg

certainly not one of these 6 guns ...that I shoot all the time / nice guns / I like them a lot ..../ but they're not "collectors guns"....they're "shooters"...for bird hunting, Skeet, Trap and Sporting Clays...( not that I treat them as spare boat paddles either ) ...but they're still very serviceable shooters...
 
The OP said:
The stock will look infinitely better than it did with the factory poly finish - yet it has a lower value. What's the rationale??
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Possibly that you changed the type of finish. You might have been better off, for resale value, to have duplicated the factory finish. I've had 101s in the past, and the factory finish looked like glass -- anything less will devalue the gun. If the gun originally had a hand rubbed oil finish and you did it in poly, that would devalue it, too. With firearms, originally finished wood and metal get the $$$. A custom stock, like on my MX-8, is pretty but will not pay for itself at resale.
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1-oz said:
for most folks the stock design and dimensions just beat the snot out of you.
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Yep, that's why mine are long gone.
 
We're not talking about some rare Pigeon Grade Purdey's here ...where some heavily engraved models may sell for over $ 100,000 ...to somebody that just wants to polish it ...and put it in his collection.../ yes, it would be a sin to refinish a gun like that ....but with all due respect to the OP here, we're talking about a Win 101 ...or any of the 15 or so Browning Citori's that I own...nothing in my collection / that could not be refinished...???
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The UK has a very different view on gun refinishing. It's almost expected that guns that are used will be refinished even Purdeys. A refinish does not detract from the value provided it was done to the same standards as the original.

Even among collectors guns refinishing is not an automatic crippling hit on value. Certainly a Winchester 21 sxs in mint condition would command the highest price it is unfair to compare it to a refinished gun. A better comparison would be the value of a 21 with the stock finish and checkering gone and most of the blueing worn off against the same gun having been properly restored by a talented professional. I know which gun I'd rather have and the one I'd pay a higher price for.
 
I disagree...to an degree, at least. "Collectors" come in all shapes and sizes and income levels. There are certainly collectors of Winchester 101s, and just about any other gun you can name. IMO, the majority, not all, are going to want any gun they buy to be in original condition. I know a couple of big-time Winchester Model 12 collectors personally. They own scores of Model 12s. Those are production guns, but they want them original and, of course, pristine as possible. Naturally, rare variations are highly desired. They won't buy refinished guns..they won't even consider it...unless documented as refinished by Winchester, and Winchester only. Now, Winchester Model 12s might not be the passion of anybody on this forum. But I guarantee there are passionate, and very particular, collectors of Model 12s out there, production guns though they are. Leaving shotguns for a moment...there are, for example, collectors of pre-64 Winchester Model 70 rifles, and Savage 99 rifles. I'm a guy interested in both. I want rare versions and I want original finish and I want, of course, guns as pristine as I can possibly find. At one time I had 78 pre-64 Winchester Model 70s and, I think 86 Model 99s. All production guns. But many of them worth $ thousands due to their rarity and original condition. None of them were refinished. I know, or have known, collectors of Walthers, Colt 1911s, Colt revolvers, pre-war Winchester lever guns (particularly saddle-ring carbines), pre-64 Winchesters of any kind, pre-war S&W revolvers, etc., etc, ad infinitum....not custom, not semi-custom...all production guns. Not many of them, of my acquaintance anyway, were overly interested in a refinished gun and, even if they find a particular refinished gun they do have some interest in...they would invariably deduct $$ for that aspect. So my experience in 40 years of collecting and 20+ years as a FFL holder concentrating on the higher-end stuff and doing deals with the public, is that refinishing typically shrinks your pool of prospective buyers more than it increases it...unless you talking about a documented factory refinish. If you take your treasured firearm to a gun shop, or gun show, any dealer with more than 2 days of experience is going to ask you, "has that gun been refinished?" if he/she suspects same. (Not that they'll necessarily take your word for it ;)). Invariably, that suspicion comes with a reduced offer.

Now, all that said, I was responding to the OP's question in a general sense and not about his particular gun. His particular gun may not have enough original condition and/or variation rarity to warrant any significant interest from a 101 collector. There are certainly many guns in that category. They are shooters only. So, of course refinishing them brings no significant penalty.
 
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I understand your perspective Txgun ... and yes, there are exceptions to everything ....and I probably spoke too broadly in terms of production guns - or at least in terms of shotguns. You also bring up a good point on the old Model 12's - which have a very dedicated collector group ( and they are rabid about having the original finish ).....but I think that is a niche group of collectors that favor the model 12's. I don't think you'll find that kind of a collector group - as dedicated to the Rem 870's - not even the Wingmaster versions / or the Browning BPS's....maybe someday / but not today as far as I know. To me some of these models of guns ...have "accumulators" but in my mind, they aren't really collectors.

Older S&W revolvers...which I do collect / are still production guns of their day ...and you're right, I wouldn't touch a S&W revolver at any price - that had been refinished - not even by the factory / maybe not especially if it was done by the factory. So I'm as adamant on S&W revolvers as you are on some of the old rifles.

A lot of the older lever action rifles ...have the same very dedicated collector groups ..and again your point is valid on not ever touching the finish on one of those guns...

But I still subscribe to the point that the Winchester 101 ( which was the OP's point here ) ... or the point I made on the Browning Citori's that I have owned for the last 25 yrs ....that refinishing on any of these specific models of shotguns ...just doesn't matter / and in fact it may increase the used value on one of these shotguns.

I'm guilty of "accumulating" Browning Citori's - since I have 5 of the Citori XS Skeet models alone all in 30" barrels ...but I don't consider myself a "collector" of Browning Citori's ....yet I consider myself a "collector" of S&W revolvers.....and in guns like the S&W model 27's or 29's ...I want a 4", a 6" and an 8 3/8" blued ...and a 4" and a 6" in Nickel...and on and on.../ maybe I have it twisted in my own mind ...to justify my own focus on guns....

I probably spoke too broadly ...my apologies..../ and you're right - there are some big collectors groups out there...on guns that I have no interest in / or on guys that collect baseball hats / or old shotgun shell boxes...etc...
 
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I've done 2 guns so far. A Draco and a Stevens single shot 10 gauge. I believe it didn't reduce the value any. And since the Stevens needed it, I'm sure the value is slightly increased. And considering it was a **** brown color, it's much better looking. Although people collect these, I doubt it'd hurt value. And they're my guns till I die anyways.
 
Model 12 collectors ....I sort of get ...even though its not a model I personally like very much ..

but model 101 collectors ...?? How many are in that group ---3 guys ../ with 2 guns each ..??? I know 1 or 2 guys that speak fondly of the model 101 ...kind of like I do about the 1956 Buick .../ but there just can't be too many out there....??:confused:

my wife has long since given up discussing my "accumulation" of guns....she knows I'm just not logical when it comes to guns.../ she's not giving up training me in other regards ....( but she's only been at it for 24 yrs with me, so there's still time on some stuff...not guns...but some stuff ).
 
101's have a number of different variations valuing from several hundred dollars up to 5 or six grand asking price. Same as Model 12's, You can have a Plain Jane model12 or a Black Diamond High Rib. Before you start sanding its a good idea to find out in which catagory it fits, like most other things.
 
Well I'm almost done refinishing the stock - so it's a moot question at this point anyway. The stock looks a million times better.

And as said above - It's my gun untill I die anyway:D
 
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