Why do you have guns?

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by folkbabe:

Additionally, listening is a way to build community. I'm not interested in debating with people, I'm interested in connecting with them.

[I've discussed this a bit with my friends who illegally own guns (who I know through different circles than my friends who hold legal guns) but their perspective is very different from most of yours. If it helps on the feel/want/need issue that's the way I talk in general. It may partly be a gender socialization thing. (women are socialized to talk about "feelings" while men are socialized to talk about "thinking". It's useful to me to know that it upsets/alienates folks who are into guns for me to talk that way.
:D[/quote]

If your interested in "connecting" with people I would suggest participant observation take a gun safty course. Also perhaps a low level quality self defense class. I would also recomend Jeff Cooper's book "Principals of Personal Defense" which deals with the psychology of defense from a application perspective.

I would be interested in hearing the perspective of the "illegal" gun owners you know. Also are they people involved in other criminal activities? Or are they just illegal because they are not rich, white, or law enforcement [DC & NYC are like that]?

Do you have any cultural sociologist or social anthropologist on your team? Do you address domestic violence?
 
Many of my fellow TFLers have more than covered many of my thoughts but I will add some to the discussion:
1) Why do you feel you want/need to own guns?
I own firearms for many reasons some of them are:
 They are fascinating relics.
 They are loads of fun to play with.
 I enjoy exercising my skills, improving them and learning more.
 Because I can. To prove I can. Because they are symbolic of both my inherent rights as a human being and my commitment and determination to preserve those rights.
2) If your primary reason for gun ownership is self-protection, what else would make you feel more secure?
My friends and neighbors armed and skilled. Schools and youth groups returning to training and educating our children in marksmanship and safe gun handling.

3) What do you think are the causes of violence in your community?
 Poor parenting. As JHS said kids are not pets. Heck, many pets are raised better than some children.
 The lack of a minimal standard of social behavior that is enforced.

As you have probably figured out already, you have touched a few nerves. Possession of arms and the efforts to deny them have been hot topics for millenium. Disarming the “lower classes” is always done for “the greater good” and it always leads to repression. The history of forced civilian disarmament is the history of the elites expanding and solidifying their control. From the Assyrians through the Tokugawa Shogunate to the Nazis and the Cambodians. It’s exceedingly hard to force the armed to kneel. To me, and I believe many of my fellow TFLers, bearing arms is equivalent to speaking my mind. I may or may not do so, but the decision is mine alone.




[This message has been edited by Maddock (edited May 18, 2000).]
 
Hi. I'm 49 and have always been around guns. Having a gun for target shooting, one for squirrels, one for groundhogs, one for birds and some for the heck of it just seems as natural as having a hammer for nails, one for pounding lids on paint cans and one for breaking up concrete. The right tool for the job. Seems like every relative had guns in the house, not always handguns, but definitely shotguns and rifles. We had both, my father having served in the Pacific in WWII and then as a Virginia State Trooper. My grandparents gave me a BB gun with a cleaning kit and wall rack when I six and an uncle gave me a .22 lever action for my birthday a few years later. It is a part of my life, not an all-consuming part, but still something I share with my 78-year-old father and others. This includes my cousin Susan, who is ex-Army BTW. I could ramble on this subject some more, but will end with a comment about responsibility. We never locked up our guns, nor did any other family I knew of. I knew where my father kept his and mine were in my closet. They were not to be played with or used without adult supervision and they weren't. I also knew where the car keys were and knew better than to go play with the car. Everyone isn't this responsible, but I don't see this as the gun's fault. Thanks for asking. I wish more people were interested in the reasons why people do what they do. John
 
1) Why do you feel you want/need to own guns?

Why do I own guns? It's fun to shoot. I've been shooting since I was a kid (8 or 9?), and I continue to enjoy it. It's another activity which takes skill and practice to attain proficiency.

More seriously, some day I might be in the unfortunate, grave extreme in which I would have to use one to defend myself or a loved one from death or grave bodily injury.

There is a certain class of problems that can be solved very well with a firearm.

As an engineer, I admire the design of firearms, and the technical aspects (eg: ballistics, trajectory) intrigue me.

As a backdrop, no one has to justify their ownership of firearms, as others have said. I can have them simply because I want them.

2) If your primary reason for gun ownership is self-protection, what else would make you feel more secure?

I have shot tens of thousands of rounds at targets, and I have never had to use a gun for self-defense. By that measure, the primary use is not self-defense -- however, I do own firearms which are specifically designed for self-defense.

In terms of personal security, I would feel more "secure" if I had more land than the small plot my rented house sits on, set back from the roadway, with a couple dogs. I would feel safer if my house were built sturdier, and had a good "safe room."

I would feel safer if my employer allowed me to carry (with my carry permit) at work.


3) What do you think are the causes of violence in your community?

What I think is really irrelevant. I have no data on what the causes of violence are. From anecdotal reports, there are probably more fights due to drunken college parties at CSU than anything else.

-z
 
Folkbabe, Welcome. You said you have been "lurking" here awhile. If that has been more than a week and if you have started reading the posts, following the links you shouldn't have to ask the questions you've asked. For a real education go to the archives and start your reading around the Elian incident. This group is diverse, as you can see from the posts. And while some may seem rough it is in defense of the basic right to defend yourself and family as a breathing animal. It is also evident that we belive that the Constitution of the U.S. is a nearly perfect document outlining the freedom of the individual not the group as many would have you believe. That's why all are welcome here. Sometimes it brings out our best (@99% of the time) and sometimes the ugly. You have to understand that we are all gunowners and with the seeming lack of regard for logic and knowledge of our rights as citizens there is frustration. What would make us feel safer than a gun, nothing because a gun guarantees liberty (read Jefferson,Franklin, and Monroe) the Constitution and the Bill of rights. Violence is a part of man (or for the PC.. person)has always been and always will. That cannot be changed with all the "feelings" in the world. It is part of the human (and animal)experience BUT all have the right to defend with whatever tool they choose. I do agree with most that it might be wise for you to explain yourself a little. By the way it never hurts to extrapolate a different thought. The responses could be a learning experience. This group also possesses a level or self-regulation and strives to make sure what is posted is factual. I have learned more from posted links in the past month than watching the mainstream press for the past 8 years. P.S. this group is representative of the general gun-owning public, it's just that we have computers and have evolved to a point where we have learned to type. Next I vow to stop using velco to tie my shoes. I will actually lean how to tie them for real. Ok, so I'm not representative of "the general gun public". I like velco, and leather, oooh chains, whips. Lighten up everybody!

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Eat $h*t and die! That's what gun control is like. Because if we keep eating it that's what we'll do!

[This message has been edited by Dennis (edited May 19, 2000).]
 
When folkbabe says TFL is not representative she is talking about statistics. We are not a random selection of gun owners.

For example it is unlikely that many people on TFL are democrats, or members of liberal orgs. Though there are gun owners that are.

Remember that some HCI types own guns and/or have shot people and have made the news because of that fact.

Also female gun owners are very under represented on TFL (unfortunately).

I think that TFL members are more information/news savvy than typical gun nuts based on my experiance.

[This message has been edited by Glamdring (edited May 18, 2000).]
 
Uhhh, I don't have any guns. ALL the guns that I had fell out of a boat in very deep water.

No, wait... My guns were all destroyed in a terrible house fire.

No, that wasn't it. My guns were swept away by a tragic flash flood.

Wait, I remember now. There was a huge earthquake, and all my guns were swallowed up by the earth.

No, no, no. I tried to trade all my guns to some aliens for a ray gun and all I got was this stupid anal probe!
 
Hello Folkbabe.......You are cordially invited to participate in some hands on shooting. Including safety demonstrations and instruction. Assorted rifles, pistols and shotguns available for your education and pleasure. Plenty of ammunition furnished. Plenty of opportunity to talk to both gvt and civil law enforcement, and just plain patriotic citizens.

I probably don't fit your standard mold of a gun owner, I am in my seventh decade, do own a computer and do a lot of thrift store shopping. First got on line with a thrift store puter that cost the same as three pair of jeans.

If interested, check my data at the top of this post for location and email.

Respectfully, Sam

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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
*** The destruction of the family unit is the primary reason for our social woes. Crime as a whole is down. The high profile mass shootings we have experienced now are merely symptoms of our moral deparvity. Unless this trend is halted, the worst is yet to come.

*** Gun laws only hamper those who will not be commiting the crimes in the first place, the law-abiding cititzen. Criminals do not nor will they ever obey laws. Organized crime would love to see a ban on handguns in this nation. This would create a new market for their ill-gotten gains.

*** I own guns first and foremost for the prtotection of my family. Secondly, private serves as a natural check and balance to our government. Do you think for once if the Kosovars had been armed that there would have been as many rapes by the Serbians as there have been. Do you think the SS would have been as bold as they were if Jewish people would have been able to fight back in Europe during WWII? Our founding fathers referred to guns as the teeth of freedom.

*** Family heritage. Hunting and shooting are something that I have enjoyed with my father, my wife, My in-laws and hopefully my children some day. Handing firearms down from generation to generation is a special thing. I never saw my Paternal Grandfather but I can hold and use the shotgun that he bird hunted with. Seeing the discolored wood on the stock resulting from his perspiration or the fact that the weapon was dropped in the marsh has no price.


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"When guns are outlawed;I will be an outlaw."
 
Folk babe,

I welcome the opportunity to respond to your questions.

You first asked: "Why do you feel you want/need to own guns?" I have two key reasons for handgun ownership:
1) Handgun shooting is a demanding and satisfying sport. It is as safe as jogging or tennis -- lots of heart attacks and orthopedic problems among baby-boomers from high aerobic stress athletics -- if one stringently adheres to fundamental safety rules and unfailingly applies common sense.
2) Self-protection/family-protection is -- most regrettably -- a real concern in contemporary America. I am fortunate to live in a low-crime, highly affluent, suburban Fairfax County neighborhood. Nevertheless, violent crimes do occur with some frequency. While I have great respect for law enforcement, it will take 3 to 10 minutes for the police to respond to a 911 call from my home (dependant upon the time of day, local traffic and weather conditions, and their immediate workload). MANY tragedies can transpire in those few minutes, some with profoundly adverse impact to those I cherish most. Accordingly, I -- not the government -- must assume responsibility for my safety, and for my family's.

You next inquired: "If your primary reason for gun ownership is self-protection, what else would make you feel more secure?" My rationale re this subject follows:
1) As discussed above, self-protection is a principal reason for my ownership and expertise with handguns. Nothing less than continuous, demonstrated police presence (similar to the constant Secret Service protection provided to the President) would be an adequate security substitute for my family's self-protection. Obviously, that is completely unrealistic. Therefore, since the government cannot ensure my family's safety, I must do so.
2) If our society every truly returned to Colonial era mores of mutual respect, where harming one's fellow citizens was virtually unheard of, I might consider reducing my self-security. This, however, seems entirely unlikely in present-day America. Moreover, even if this happened, I would still shoot for the pleasure and recreation of the sport.

You finally asked: "What do you think are the causes of violence in your community?" I believe:
1) This is a most complex subject. Sadly, there simply are no simple or easy answers, and greater governmental involvement will only exacerbate the problem.
2) However, it is my opinion that the crux of our nation's widespread violence is a generalized lack of respect for our fellow Americans. We observe evidences of this contempt daily. The individuals who selfishly cuts one off in traffic, who routinely cheats on civic duties (e.g., paying taxes), who fail to adhere to simple rules of civility, or who are so self-absorbed that only personal well-being and advancement are important personify our aggregate disregard for each other.
3) Much of this, I believe, results from the heterogeneousness of our society. It is far more difficult to disdain one's self-evaluated peers than people with whom individuals feel little common connection. This is why violence was so uncommon in the Colonial era -- one simply did not violate the rights of neighbors, with whom one shared every conceivable demographic and connection. This may also explain why highly homogeneous societies (such as Switzerland) have so little crime.
4) As long as some Americans view their neighbors as "targets" for easy -- immoral and illegal -- self-enhancement, crime will be prevalent. This will continue, in my view, for a many generations, until we realize that violence perpetrated on any individual undermines everyone's liberty.

In addition, there is a very real, very essential Constitutional question involved in firearms ownership. The undisputable fact is the Founders sanctified the Second Amendment as a safeguard to our freedom, one I am as reluctant to abolish as freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, or freedom of assembly.

Folk babe, I have devoted considerable time and thought to this answer. I hope you will understand that within the firearms community there are many individuals who have the same ideals, intelligence, education, experience, and record of distinguished service to our nation that exists in the very best elements of the non-firearms population.

Mutual respect is required. It is time for anti-gun citizens to stop engaging in pejorative rhetoric and to recognize the deeply -- and rationally -- held beliefs of the pro-firearms group.


[This message has been edited by RWK (edited May 19, 2000).]
 
So, my questions are:

1) Why do you feel you want/need to own guns?

The first part - "want". I enjoy firearms. Shooting to me is both a sport in and of itself and a means to an end (hunting, good scores on the range, self-defense). They are a mechanical contrivance/tool that is difficult to master, and, for me, fun to try to master. I think they are often esthetically pleasing - the same as many other mechanical devices such as cars and sailboats appeal to aficionados.

"Need". The 2nd Amendment is not about duck hunting or Olympic shooting. Any more than the 1st Amendment is about the right to publish a high school newspaper or hold a pre-game pep rally or to go to Sunday School. The 2nd Amendment is about protection - but not necessarily on a solely individual "self-protection" scale.

When one has the right to keep and bear arms - the arm (or arms) can also be used for self-protection as well as for many other purposes - sporting and otherwise- such as tinkering, hobby or any other legitimate common human interest in the use, collection, decoration of a tool. I think all citizens need to have arms - and should be trained in their use. This, as I read it, is the intent of the 2nd Amendment.

As for self-protection (or the protection of others) - I don't think I need armaments (gun, knife, machette, baseball bat) all the time. The trouble is, that I don't know when I will need it (Luby's Rest. on a Sunday in Texas comes to mind) and so I want to have one available at all times. If I "knew" when the need was imitate - then I could not worry about the bother of having armament available 99.44% of the time.

2) If your primary reason for gun ownership is self-protection, what else would make you feel more secure?

Nothing would make me feel "more" secure - except maybe a Black Belt in one or more of the martial arts and an armed (and trained) cadre of bodyguards.

3) What do you think are the causes of violence in your community?

America has a historic culture of violence. (And I don't believe making all law abiding citizens potentially disarmed victims is going to change that culture.)

Enforcing that cultural concept has been one of the great achievements of the entertainment media. "Might makes right" is the hourly message on the networks and in the movies. It doesn't matter how violent and despicable the bad guys are - the good guys have the right to determine if "it ain't right" and then use the same - or greater level of violence or despicable behavior to stop the bad guys. I've yet to meet a "bad guy" who, in the heat of the moment - didn't think he was "right" (or righteous) in what deed he did. (They got what I need, they "diss'ed me", my wife wanted to keep me from my kids, or whatever.) And TV subtly tells them this is OK.

I enjoy a good action thriller as much as the next guy - but I've passed the half century mark and have long been able to tell the difference between fantasy and reality. (At least mostly.) Also, tales of morality and blood letting are as old as mankind (I defy you to find a best seller that has near the violence and bloodshed that can be found in the Old Testament - especially the Book of Kings). But we don't tell these stories around the campfire every once in a while to give morality lessons. We start children from birth with 3 hours and up - daily - of the best graphic and realistic renditions that the media can conjure - of extreme violence practiced by the righteous(?).

Another thing you see in day to day TV and movies that are targeted at youngsters is the "easy life". Where else (except on TV or in the movies) are you going to find 20 something folks in entry level jobs who are able to afford well furnished metropolitan area apartments in the $1,500 a month range? Also these folks often don't seem to have to go to work regularly - and, if they do - the bosses don't seem to worry about all the time spend talking or going "out to lunch" for some hours.

We sell this violence and the unrealistic life style as "real" - and wonder why we have many of the problems we do?

Hey - if I wanted to pass a law that was infringing on one or another of the Amendments contained in the Bill of Rights - and which I expected to influence the level of violence in this country - I'd target the 1st way before the 2nd. To me, it makes more sense to target the motivation rather than the tools. (As I recall, we tried this with prohibition.)

There is an interesting set of articles in the recent Scientific American on the changing face of war. One of the articles deals with children inducted into the military (legit or rebel). With the proper conditioning apparently they become acclimated to the culture of violence. Catch them before 6 months exposure – they can revert. Somewhere between 6 months and a year of exposure – Katie bar the door. Maybe we should look at this phenomenon – and then look at ourselves.

I want – and I think, “we” need – to have the tools to protect ourselves (as individuals). I want – and I think “we” need to have a lot less need to protect ourselves. But dinking with the tools, rather than the violence, is – in my opinion – P*** ing up a rope in a high wind.


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Jim Fox
 
Alright, I'm gonna respond to other people first then Arrel will get a nice long post. ;)

Smithz - IMHO what individuals think about violence in their community is important because sociological surveys can't neccessarily capture the root causes of violence. Also, our organization strives to empower people to work together to solve their own problems. By identifying one anothers' concerns/beliefs around violence we can work together to solve the problems. (obviously this doesn't apply to this particular situation but I'm using (very unscientifically) this board to get a rough feel for what some gun owners in my own community believe. We do door-to-door surveying of our communities when we are actually working on a project. Being listened to (and having something done with that information) is an empowering experience plus people are introduced to eachother.

Sumabich - I did learn a lot from other threads about why people are opposed to gun control. I also had a general feel for some of the diverse reasons people own guns but I wanted to be able to connect various people's reasons for owning guns with their feelings about the causes of violence. I also didn't find that much information on what gun owners thoughts about violence and problems and how to solve these things.

Glamdring - Thanks for the advice. On the topic of my friends, the guns are owned illegally because they were bought "off the street" instead of through the legal channels. Many of them are involved in low-level illegal activity and some have been convicted of crimes (which means they can't legally buy guns). Most of them say they have guns so that they can defend themselves if "someone messes with them." Another reason (especially for my younger friends) is essentially to show off (to look tough). Keep in mind that they, like most of my friends, are young people. Oh, to my knowledge, nobody in our group has a degree in sociology or anthropology (although I'm a soc major) but it is very possible someone does. It's not, however, an academic group but rather an activist/organizer group.

Whoever asked about domestic violence - At this point domestic violence is not a focus for the program because that is not the problem most people in our communities identify as a very pressing one. In the past (as in way past) I believe we had programs specifically targetting it but we do not at this point. However, I know we do address awareness of gender inequities as part of the non-violence training in schools and non-violent conflict resolution is one of the main things we work on. For adults, I'm pretty sure the non-violence training focuses largely on problems within marriage and how they are solved. (I'm not as familiar with the adult programs as I work mostly with other youth.) We also address the underlying economic and empowerment issues that lead to violence both within relationship and in society at large. It's sortof same philosophy as we use for gun violence - addressing the underlying causes.

You've all given me a lot of interesting diverse responses, especially in the area of "causes of violence." Thanks.

I'm gonna respond to Arrel in a post in a few minutes then I'm gonna go to sleep cause I have an exam in about 7 hours. I'm gonna be staying for the weekend at a friend's house who doesn't have internet access so I may not be back on until Sunday but I'm not abandoning or ignoring ya'lls. ;) I'll certainly respond to more questions Sunday and I'll have a chance to further read all your wonderful responses. :D

ps - thank you very much JimFox and RWK for your legnthy and informative responses. :)

[This message has been edited by folkbabe (edited May 19, 2000).]
 
Folkbabe & all,

When a thread hits 100K or around fifty posts, the thread is so long it takes forever to load on some computers. Therefore, we close (lock) a thread and ask folks to start part 2.

Thought I should explain lest you mistake my intent! :D
 
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