Why do you have guns? Part V
- Thread starter buzz_knox
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hack... hack... sputter... sputter...(bout of coughing)
Sorry guys, I swallowed my gum after reading: "I'm prepared for what would happen in a rape situation. Depending on the situation, I might run, call for help, physically struggle, talk with my attacker, or other options. I wouldn't kill my attacker." Not to be rude, but you've got your head in the clouds or something, because the above statementis not realistic!
folkbabe, w/ all due respect: Have you ever tried/had occasion to to fend off a 200+ lb man? I've had the unpleasant experience of trying to...didn't work and I'm a pretty good-sized woman!
Before I knew what hit me, I was eating asphalt in an alley. I sure as heck didn't feel like talking to the guy (not that he would have listened anyway, believe me). "Um, excuse me sir, do you mind getting your hands out of my panties? You don't really want to rape me. Oh, and how was your relationship with your mother?" That would have sparked more violence on his part, it wouldn't have made him think twice about what he was doing. He had one thing and one thing only on his mind!
The only thing going thru my mind then was "I wish I had a gun!!!!" Speaking from experience, you don't have time or thought to talking your way out of it, the violence is so extreme and sudden, your reactions are purely instinctual, flight or fight and I put up one he!! of a fight...
Oh, I did call for help (people were around) but they just stood there. Hopefully if it ever happens to you, there will be an honest citizen like me or other TFL'rs nearby to save your hide...
BTW, I don't want to hear any "call a support group" or "I feel your pain" sentiment from you, it was a long time ago... I'm a tough woman and have gotten over it.
Now, anybody tries to hurt me or mine, they will quickly find themselves looking down the business end of a 9mm or a shotgun if in my home. I just don't understand your kind of mentality!!! I just don't get it...
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Liberty or death, what we so proudly hail... DON'T TREAD ON ME!!-Metallica
"Many's the men who've battled foe
many the number slain,
many the lads have fallen though
Scotland shall rise again."
Behind the walls of thoughts there lyes, Something timeless something wise. Within us all the prize of our past; From father to son, from the first to the last. And so full circle the image reappears; to this second son born, the hazy mist clears. An echo swamped in youthful rage, revealed once more with the coming of age. So forget ye not the departed ones, for the souls they live on, in the blood of the sons..."-Steve McDonald
[This message has been edited by Darthmaum (edited May 25, 2000).]
Sorry guys, I swallowed my gum after reading: "I'm prepared for what would happen in a rape situation. Depending on the situation, I might run, call for help, physically struggle, talk with my attacker, or other options. I wouldn't kill my attacker." Not to be rude, but you've got your head in the clouds or something, because the above statementis not realistic!
folkbabe, w/ all due respect: Have you ever tried/had occasion to to fend off a 200+ lb man? I've had the unpleasant experience of trying to...didn't work and I'm a pretty good-sized woman!
Before I knew what hit me, I was eating asphalt in an alley. I sure as heck didn't feel like talking to the guy (not that he would have listened anyway, believe me). "Um, excuse me sir, do you mind getting your hands out of my panties? You don't really want to rape me. Oh, and how was your relationship with your mother?" That would have sparked more violence on his part, it wouldn't have made him think twice about what he was doing. He had one thing and one thing only on his mind!
The only thing going thru my mind then was "I wish I had a gun!!!!" Speaking from experience, you don't have time or thought to talking your way out of it, the violence is so extreme and sudden, your reactions are purely instinctual, flight or fight and I put up one he!! of a fight...
Oh, I did call for help (people were around) but they just stood there. Hopefully if it ever happens to you, there will be an honest citizen like me or other TFL'rs nearby to save your hide...
BTW, I don't want to hear any "call a support group" or "I feel your pain" sentiment from you, it was a long time ago... I'm a tough woman and have gotten over it.
Now, anybody tries to hurt me or mine, they will quickly find themselves looking down the business end of a 9mm or a shotgun if in my home. I just don't understand your kind of mentality!!! I just don't get it...
------------------
Liberty or death, what we so proudly hail... DON'T TREAD ON ME!!-Metallica
"Many's the men who've battled foe
many the number slain,
many the lads have fallen though
Scotland shall rise again."
Behind the walls of thoughts there lyes, Something timeless something wise. Within us all the prize of our past; From father to son, from the first to the last. And so full circle the image reappears; to this second son born, the hazy mist clears. An echo swamped in youthful rage, revealed once more with the coming of age. So forget ye not the departed ones, for the souls they live on, in the blood of the sons..."-Steve McDonald
[This message has been edited by Darthmaum (edited May 25, 2000).]
Folkbabe, for one so young, you are quite articulate. Correct me if I am wrong, I understand that the upcoming national election will be the first in which you will be old enough to vote.
I appreciate your ideals and convictions but think you have yet to see enough of life to be able to make informed judgements.
Though I am easily old enough to be your grandfather, I admit to not having all the answers. I have been around long enough to learn to sort a lot of the wheat from the chaff.
May you peacefully grow to learn what you know.
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Sam I am, grn egs n packin
Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
I appreciate your ideals and convictions but think you have yet to see enough of life to be able to make informed judgements.
Though I am easily old enough to be your grandfather, I admit to not having all the answers. I have been around long enough to learn to sort a lot of the wheat from the chaff.
May you peacefully grow to learn what you know.
------------------
Sam I am, grn egs n packin
Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
Folkbabe,
You are correct. Judges HATE to have jury nullification mentioned in their courts. It complicates their simple minds, and threatens their small little autocracy. Judges have an ego problem in a lot of cases. Maybe Judge Blackhawk could enlighten us on why or maybe another attorney at TFL.
IF a judge can determine the Jury's verdict or remove jury members at will, then why in hell do we have a jury at all?
While jury nullification isn't law, it is part of our heritage from English common law. It is considered by many to be your obligation to not convict someone who may have done the morally correct thing, yet may have broken a stupid law.
You can probably understand the importance of a Not Guilty verdict as you seem to be of very high intelligence. I feel it is my obligation to break my juror's oath if a man's life, quality of life, or society's safety depends on me breaking the oath. My duty over-rides my sense of loyalty to an oath that is wrong in the first place. Would you convict MLK for some of the things he did? Today, you would have to.
P.S. Just because I acknowlege your intelligence doesn't mean I agree one whit with you
You are correct. Judges HATE to have jury nullification mentioned in their courts. It complicates their simple minds, and threatens their small little autocracy. Judges have an ego problem in a lot of cases. Maybe Judge Blackhawk could enlighten us on why or maybe another attorney at TFL.
IF a judge can determine the Jury's verdict or remove jury members at will, then why in hell do we have a jury at all?
While jury nullification isn't law, it is part of our heritage from English common law. It is considered by many to be your obligation to not convict someone who may have done the morally correct thing, yet may have broken a stupid law.
You can probably understand the importance of a Not Guilty verdict as you seem to be of very high intelligence. I feel it is my obligation to break my juror's oath if a man's life, quality of life, or society's safety depends on me breaking the oath. My duty over-rides my sense of loyalty to an oath that is wrong in the first place. Would you convict MLK for some of the things he did? Today, you would have to.
P.S. Just because I acknowlege your intelligence doesn't mean I agree one whit with you
If you knock or ring the bell and I we;come you into my home then all is cool. If not plan on getting hammered with 2 rds. of corbon 115gr hp's at 1500 fps and leaving in a nice bright yellow bag (SP2340 .357sig)... Note that all my doors and windows have warning signs that state you will be body bagged if not welcomed into my home. (eitheer by rambo (my lovable rottweiller) or Plotz my czech trained partner... What all USA needs in this day and age. Feel free to visit., just remember as a welcome guest not a statistic...
Jeff Thomas
New member
folkbabe, if you really want to explore your beliefs fully, consider a hypothetical journey ... through time.
Consider how you would 'consult' with Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin or any other murdering despot of your choice. And, when you met him or her, you were carrying a quality firearm. I gather, from your statements, you wouldn't destroy such people, even though it would save perhaps millions of other human beings. If you would kill such a murderer, then where do you draw the line?
As part of this 'journey', consider visiting the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC, either in person or on the web. I tend to think that part of survival is realizing the true depths of evil ... a difficult task for sane, decent human beings.
Yes, we've certainly slain this horse. But, you know, you have caused me to realize the very significant danger we now face from aggressive pacifists ... recognizing that you may be the exception that wouldn't forcibly reduce the rest of us to a defenseless state.
I am absolutely convinced that the American people are currently being sold a pacifistic bill of goods. Many Americans are foolishly going along with many anti-self defense arguments, but are not logically thinking through the pacifism such arguments require. Especially women.
And, that is sad indeed. Perhaps hundreds of thousands of women are being fooled into believing that they can just wish violence away, and deal with predators by applying kind thoughts, and new laws. Or, at best, using martial arts and car keys in order to combat predators with 50 or 100 pound weight advantages.
So, I owe you some gratitude here. You've opened my eyes further, and truly expanded my comprehension of your philosophy. When I debate others, or speak on the subject of the RKBA, it will help me immeasurably to consider this perspective more fully.
Because I honestly believe that most Americans will eventually recoil at the reality you would create with such views. While idealistically attractive, your philosophy is not a perspective that can long last in a dangerous world. As a matter of fact, consider studying the pacifism following World War I. Strong arguments have been made that that pacifism, in conjunction with other variables, led directly to the horror of World War II.
Pacifism is an idealistic concept that will always exist, and that is probably good in an ironic way. But allowing pacifism to embolden predators and stupefy populations is perhaps the cruelest human tragedy.
Regards from AZ
Consider how you would 'consult' with Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin or any other murdering despot of your choice. And, when you met him or her, you were carrying a quality firearm. I gather, from your statements, you wouldn't destroy such people, even though it would save perhaps millions of other human beings. If you would kill such a murderer, then where do you draw the line?
As part of this 'journey', consider visiting the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC, either in person or on the web. I tend to think that part of survival is realizing the true depths of evil ... a difficult task for sane, decent human beings.
Yes, we've certainly slain this horse. But, you know, you have caused me to realize the very significant danger we now face from aggressive pacifists ... recognizing that you may be the exception that wouldn't forcibly reduce the rest of us to a defenseless state.
I am absolutely convinced that the American people are currently being sold a pacifistic bill of goods. Many Americans are foolishly going along with many anti-self defense arguments, but are not logically thinking through the pacifism such arguments require. Especially women.
And, that is sad indeed. Perhaps hundreds of thousands of women are being fooled into believing that they can just wish violence away, and deal with predators by applying kind thoughts, and new laws. Or, at best, using martial arts and car keys in order to combat predators with 50 or 100 pound weight advantages.
So, I owe you some gratitude here. You've opened my eyes further, and truly expanded my comprehension of your philosophy. When I debate others, or speak on the subject of the RKBA, it will help me immeasurably to consider this perspective more fully.
Because I honestly believe that most Americans will eventually recoil at the reality you would create with such views. While idealistically attractive, your philosophy is not a perspective that can long last in a dangerous world. As a matter of fact, consider studying the pacifism following World War I. Strong arguments have been made that that pacifism, in conjunction with other variables, led directly to the horror of World War II.
Pacifism is an idealistic concept that will always exist, and that is probably good in an ironic way. But allowing pacifism to embolden predators and stupefy populations is perhaps the cruelest human tragedy.
Regards from AZ
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
Gandhi is the most famous of the non violent crowd. Let's analyze the consequences of his non-violence. His foremost opponent in the fight for Indian independence, Winston S. Churchill, predicted the deaths of millions of Indians if the British were not present to keep the peace between various factions. Gandhi won and his followers immediately began massacring Muslims who returned the favor. Two million dead in the immediate aftermath of India's "non-violent" independence. The law of unintended consequences.
Folkbabe,
I'm one of the males you mentioned earlier. Some weirdo tried to sexually assault me years ago...I didn't shoot him. I should have but I didn't. I just ran him off.
I have had numerous confrontations under deadly conditions. Home invasion, surprise the burglar, people who object violently to repossession and collection activity. I've drawn a handgun three times and kept it in low ready (not pointed at anyone but ready to do so). So I am quite confident that if I come home and find my wife in bed with the local football team that I will pack my bags, go to a motel, and call my lawyer. I'm sorry that you are not confident of your ability to control yourself during extremes of emotion.
It is rather odd that a pacifist would have fears of not being able to control their reactions under stress while violence monger is able to do so with ease. If you ever hear that I have shot someone then you can count on this: I made the conscious, rational decision to shoot them according to the laws governing self defense in my state. It was not an emotion controlled action.
Oh, and even stipulating that a "godhead" or some such divinity is present in each of us. There are two possible ways to view it: 1)The god in us is crazy, needs to be destroyed, and would thank us for its necessary destruction, or 2) the god in us is a helpless passenger, unable to control the crazed human it inhabits, in which case it would appreciate being reincarnated in a more amicable setting. So the god thing really doesn't get you very far.
I don't deny the humanity of assailants.
Considering them predators does not deny their humanity. If I ever have to shoot someone, I fully expect them to cry for their mama as they die. If they were trying to hurt me or some other innocent person....so what?
------------------
Byron Quick
Folkbabe,
I'm one of the males you mentioned earlier. Some weirdo tried to sexually assault me years ago...I didn't shoot him. I should have but I didn't. I just ran him off.
I have had numerous confrontations under deadly conditions. Home invasion, surprise the burglar, people who object violently to repossession and collection activity. I've drawn a handgun three times and kept it in low ready (not pointed at anyone but ready to do so). So I am quite confident that if I come home and find my wife in bed with the local football team that I will pack my bags, go to a motel, and call my lawyer. I'm sorry that you are not confident of your ability to control yourself during extremes of emotion.
It is rather odd that a pacifist would have fears of not being able to control their reactions under stress while violence monger is able to do so with ease. If you ever hear that I have shot someone then you can count on this: I made the conscious, rational decision to shoot them according to the laws governing self defense in my state. It was not an emotion controlled action.
Oh, and even stipulating that a "godhead" or some such divinity is present in each of us. There are two possible ways to view it: 1)The god in us is crazy, needs to be destroyed, and would thank us for its necessary destruction, or 2) the god in us is a helpless passenger, unable to control the crazed human it inhabits, in which case it would appreciate being reincarnated in a more amicable setting. So the god thing really doesn't get you very far.
I don't deny the humanity of assailants.
Considering them predators does not deny their humanity. If I ever have to shoot someone, I fully expect them to cry for their mama as they die. If they were trying to hurt me or some other innocent person....so what?
------------------
Byron Quick
I don't know about anybody else, but it looks awful fishy that folkbabe started the day Gwinny left 
C'mon, admit it, you're really Gwinny in disguise right?
All kidding aside, you are good, I will give you that. I'm outta this thread.
[This message has been edited by RAE (edited May 25, 2000).]
C'mon, admit it, you're really Gwinny in disguise right?
All kidding aside, you are good, I will give you that. I'm outta this thread.
[This message has been edited by RAE (edited May 25, 2000).]
We agree Folkbabe!They did kill Him because of the threat He is their establistment.
He had to die for me. He could have called on a leigon on angles to stop it and destroy the world.Satan saw to His death, are you going to allow satan to see to yours? You can fight back. Someone from TFL will teach you!They will teach you to control your rage!
He had to die for me. He could have called on a leigon on angles to stop it and destroy the world.Satan saw to His death, are you going to allow satan to see to yours? You can fight back. Someone from TFL will teach you!They will teach you to control your rage!
Despite starting this thread, I've tried to stay out of it because folkbabe was making me so thoroughly disgusted, that I knew I'd overstep the bounds of decorum. But I've pretty much had it. Folkbabe, like most alleged pacifists, is the embodiment of arrogance and presumption. She attacks us and those non-physical and moral cowards by attributing to us the most base of human behavior: violent, unreasoning aggression. We're likely to kill if we're jealous; we teach violence; we yearn for the chance to be Rambo.
I don't know about the rest of you, but when I take hold of a weapon, I go instantly calm. That's my training. I know the responsibility of having a weapon, and I am incapable of using it inappropriately. Could I have a ND? Sure, almost did once. But outside of that, not a chance for misuse.
Folkbabe, I personally find your beliefs reprehensible, because I know you haven't thought it through. You talk about calling for help if attacked? Well, what would you be calling for help for: a group intervention; a counselor for your rapist; group hugs? No. You'd be calling for a cop to come and use physical violence to stop or kill your attacker. You want someone else to use force, the very thing you refuse to.
As a true pacifist, you would be required to submit to ANY violence, offer no resistance whatsoever (whether physical or verbal) and attempt to "counsel" your attacker. You've indicated you would try to run (which constitutes physical resistance), to call for help ("someone get a cop to come and shoot this misguided soul"). Not the mark of a pacifist. The fact that you would even consider such action clearly indicates that you've adopted the persona of a pacifist so that you would never have to face the moral dilemma of whether to use physical force to save your life or the life of another.
By the way, you do realize that most of the people considered pacifists where not in any way pacifists? Gandhi, for example, said that if faced with the choice of submitting to evil or responding with violence, he would of course respond with violence. Nonviolent civil disobedience in no way constitutes pacifism. I dare say that Thoreau (the founder of nonviolent civil disobedience) and Martin Luther King, Jr., would both have responded the same way, at least if a loved one were threatened.
You should be glad the 13th Amendment exists. You are nothing more than a slave in training.
Please tell me you don't intend to have children. Sheep belong on ranches, not in the general population.
I don't know about the rest of you, but when I take hold of a weapon, I go instantly calm. That's my training. I know the responsibility of having a weapon, and I am incapable of using it inappropriately. Could I have a ND? Sure, almost did once. But outside of that, not a chance for misuse.
Folkbabe, I personally find your beliefs reprehensible, because I know you haven't thought it through. You talk about calling for help if attacked? Well, what would you be calling for help for: a group intervention; a counselor for your rapist; group hugs? No. You'd be calling for a cop to come and use physical violence to stop or kill your attacker. You want someone else to use force, the very thing you refuse to.
As a true pacifist, you would be required to submit to ANY violence, offer no resistance whatsoever (whether physical or verbal) and attempt to "counsel" your attacker. You've indicated you would try to run (which constitutes physical resistance), to call for help ("someone get a cop to come and shoot this misguided soul"). Not the mark of a pacifist. The fact that you would even consider such action clearly indicates that you've adopted the persona of a pacifist so that you would never have to face the moral dilemma of whether to use physical force to save your life or the life of another.
By the way, you do realize that most of the people considered pacifists where not in any way pacifists? Gandhi, for example, said that if faced with the choice of submitting to evil or responding with violence, he would of course respond with violence. Nonviolent civil disobedience in no way constitutes pacifism. I dare say that Thoreau (the founder of nonviolent civil disobedience) and Martin Luther King, Jr., would both have responded the same way, at least if a loved one were threatened.
You should be glad the 13th Amendment exists. You are nothing more than a slave in training.
Please tell me you don't intend to have children. Sheep belong on ranches, not in the general population.
Folkbabe,
I think you are right in many ways.
You do not value your own life any more than that of a murderer, rapist or tyrant - so you do not wish to carry a gun in self-defence.
You do not trust yourself, your cool-headedness, your judgement and your self-control - so you do not wish to carry a gun in self-defence.
However, you trust a potential rapist's sense of self-control and cool-headedness, when, moved by your words, he stops raping you and politely walks away - so you do not wish to carry a gun in self-defence.
You have the right to choose to be unarmed, and you seem to be willing to exercise it more than gladly - more power to you.
[This message has been edited by 416Rigby (edited May 25, 2000).]
I think you are right in many ways.
You do not value your own life any more than that of a murderer, rapist or tyrant - so you do not wish to carry a gun in self-defence.
You do not trust yourself, your cool-headedness, your judgement and your self-control - so you do not wish to carry a gun in self-defence.
However, you trust a potential rapist's sense of self-control and cool-headedness, when, moved by your words, he stops raping you and politely walks away - so you do not wish to carry a gun in self-defence.
You have the right to choose to be unarmed, and you seem to be willing to exercise it more than gladly - more power to you.
[This message has been edited by 416Rigby (edited May 25, 2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by folkbabe:
...snip...
Anyway, yes, I think tyrants and murderers should be treated with compassion and mercy. They're still human beings.
Multiple snips
Spectre - I will always defend life. I spend my life doing it.
[This message has been edited by folkbabe (edited May 25, 2000).][/B][/quote]
Folkbabe. Your attitude toward tyrants is very ill concieved. I wish I had the pictures to show you... if I ever find them again, I'll point them out to you... Non violent opposition is every tyrants dream. If you think sit ins and human chains would stop the likes of Hitler, Stalin, or the petty African tyrants in existance today (and this is the tip of the iceburg), You are NOT defending life. Look at history... see the photographs of troops shooting people (men women and children) kneeling in front of ditches, then walking up to the mass grave and making sure every one is dead. non violence only works if your opposition has a conscience... and murderers and tyrants DON'T. Now, I don't blame people like you for what these tyrants do (ie, you are not enabling them or any of that crap... they alone are responsible for thier actions) but the philosophy you practice is ignorant and wrong (I'm sorry, I understand you mean well, and that pacifism is very important to you, but I feel strongly about this). I can almost guarantee that Ghandi vs the Nazis (or the communists or ...name your tyrant) would have been a much shorter and different story.
my apologies for a long and possibly offensive post.
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Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals
...snip...
Anyway, yes, I think tyrants and murderers should be treated with compassion and mercy. They're still human beings.
Multiple snips
Spectre - I will always defend life. I spend my life doing it.
[This message has been edited by folkbabe (edited May 25, 2000).][/B][/quote]
Folkbabe. Your attitude toward tyrants is very ill concieved. I wish I had the pictures to show you... if I ever find them again, I'll point them out to you... Non violent opposition is every tyrants dream. If you think sit ins and human chains would stop the likes of Hitler, Stalin, or the petty African tyrants in existance today (and this is the tip of the iceburg), You are NOT defending life. Look at history... see the photographs of troops shooting people (men women and children) kneeling in front of ditches, then walking up to the mass grave and making sure every one is dead. non violence only works if your opposition has a conscience... and murderers and tyrants DON'T. Now, I don't blame people like you for what these tyrants do (ie, you are not enabling them or any of that crap... they alone are responsible for thier actions) but the philosophy you practice is ignorant and wrong (I'm sorry, I understand you mean well, and that pacifism is very important to you, but I feel strongly about this). I can almost guarantee that Ghandi vs the Nazis (or the communists or ...name your tyrant) would have been a much shorter and different story.
my apologies for a long and possibly offensive post.
------------------
Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals
TO GET BACK TO THE TITLE OF THIS THREAD
When I brought home my first, and maybe only handgun I will own, my wife almost left me. She was not anti, it is just a disagreement over my actions of buying the gun. But things have been smoothed over since; one of the reasons were sent during one of our many email arguments. My step-daughter disappeared from school, we later found out she had gone to the corner store with some of her friends, but she did not ask or tell anybody. All anybody knew was that she was GONE.
So here is a part of that email...
"SIDE NOTE: I felt completely incapable of protecting my family when I was driving to *'s school and nobody knew where she was, it took me 45 minutes to get there (traffic) and I had all of these thoughts about her in the back of some van. I guess I did not want to feel that powerless ever again. I know that even though I have it locked up in the house and that it would not help me then, I feel better knowing that it is there. It is my feeling and I do not expect you to know what I am talking about."
That is why I have a gun.
When I brought home my first, and maybe only handgun I will own, my wife almost left me. She was not anti, it is just a disagreement over my actions of buying the gun. But things have been smoothed over since; one of the reasons were sent during one of our many email arguments. My step-daughter disappeared from school, we later found out she had gone to the corner store with some of her friends, but she did not ask or tell anybody. All anybody knew was that she was GONE.
So here is a part of that email...
"SIDE NOTE: I felt completely incapable of protecting my family when I was driving to *'s school and nobody knew where she was, it took me 45 minutes to get there (traffic) and I had all of these thoughts about her in the back of some van. I guess I did not want to feel that powerless ever again. I know that even though I have it locked up in the house and that it would not help me then, I feel better knowing that it is there. It is my feeling and I do not expect you to know what I am talking about."
That is why I have a gun.
Miss Demeanors
New member
folkbabe, I just have a few responses
Second of all, my second paragraph was an attempt to explain the
absurdity of people saying "you don't know what you'd do if you were
in Raped's shoes".
Why is that absurd? That is a legit question. Most women tend to think
about what they would do AFTER they have been in that situation. Even a
rape prevention class will take you through all sorts of situations ...
which brings me to you next statement:
Can you all really tell me that you are 100% sure of what you'd
do in every situation?
It's not the fact that someone would be 100% sure of what they would do,
it's about being prepared should something like that happen. If you have
given the idea absolutely no thought you will be in complete panic. If
you had ran a few scenarios through your mind on what you would do, you
will have a plan. Kind of how you have a plan should your house catch fire. When you are that frightened you are not going to think
very clear because this is going to be a 'surprise'. If you had
practiced and had a simple plan should you be in a situation like this,
you will have the correct instinct of what to do. A silly example but it
should make my point: when you try a new recipie you read the directions
and make the dish step by step, it always takes longer the first time. You
make that same dish next week, its easier. You make that dish again and
most likely you will not need to look at the recipie because you know how
to make it, it comes natural. (Best I could come up with this early)
So, the same applies to a life/death situation, you have ran this scenario
so many times through your head that defense will be a natural reaction.
Of course no one can predict the total outcome but you sure can be as well
prepared as possible.
Anyway, yes, I think tyrants and murderers should be treated with
compassion and mercy.
Do you think someone like John Gacy should have been treated with compassion?
Do you think they should have hugged him after finding the bodies of young
boys buried in his walls? What if one of the victims was your son? Should
we have just let him sit in his padded jail cell with more luxries than
most poor people?
What do you think of a police officer that shoots and kills a bad guy? Police
do that often to protect, would this mean you think all Police are violent?
What about Waco and how all those men, women and children were killed?
Should we treat the agents that did that with compassion? If not then you
would have to think it is 'ok' for government to use force but not an
average citizen?
A friend of mine growing up's father used to beat on him. Then,
he got off alchohol. Violence stopped.
Good for your friend but violence is a learned behavior, alcohol just
increased the severity of violence. Self defense is an instinct. Look at
animals...say birds. If you see a squirrel trying to invade a nest full
of babies, the birds will do whatever they have to do to protect their
young, and yes I have seen them kill. It is an instinct.
I've talked my way out of pretty bad situations before. I mentioned
them earlier. (the guys pulling guns on my friend and me and also the
guys hassling/assaulting my friends and me.) It depends upon your reading
of the situation.
Just from reading this paragraph I get the feeling you may have a fear of
guns? Would that be a correct statement? I had someone pull a gun on me
too. I also witnessed a self inflicted fatal shooting to the head. That gave me a HUGE
fear of guns, so I can see where as you might be afraid of guns. You have
only seed the 'dark' side of firearms you need to see the other side of
it, and yes there is a lighter side to guns believe it or not.
I am geniunely curious to know how two people can read the bible
such totally different ways.
The same way two people see firearms even after reading the facts.
------------------
Sandys' Homepage
RKBA forums
We are as one as we all are the same fighting for one cause -Metallica
Join us at the TFL meet August 12&13
[This message has been edited by Miss Demeanors (edited May 25, 2000).]
Second of all, my second paragraph was an attempt to explain the
absurdity of people saying "you don't know what you'd do if you were
in Raped's shoes".
Why is that absurd? That is a legit question. Most women tend to think
about what they would do AFTER they have been in that situation. Even a
rape prevention class will take you through all sorts of situations ...
which brings me to you next statement:
Can you all really tell me that you are 100% sure of what you'd
do in every situation?
It's not the fact that someone would be 100% sure of what they would do,
it's about being prepared should something like that happen. If you have
given the idea absolutely no thought you will be in complete panic. If
you had ran a few scenarios through your mind on what you would do, you
will have a plan. Kind of how you have a plan should your house catch fire. When you are that frightened you are not going to think
very clear because this is going to be a 'surprise'. If you had
practiced and had a simple plan should you be in a situation like this,
you will have the correct instinct of what to do. A silly example but it
should make my point: when you try a new recipie you read the directions
and make the dish step by step, it always takes longer the first time. You
make that same dish next week, its easier. You make that dish again and
most likely you will not need to look at the recipie because you know how
to make it, it comes natural. (Best I could come up with this early
)So, the same applies to a life/death situation, you have ran this scenario
so many times through your head that defense will be a natural reaction.
Of course no one can predict the total outcome but you sure can be as well
prepared as possible.
Anyway, yes, I think tyrants and murderers should be treated with
compassion and mercy.
Do you think someone like John Gacy should have been treated with compassion?
Do you think they should have hugged him after finding the bodies of young
boys buried in his walls? What if one of the victims was your son? Should
we have just let him sit in his padded jail cell with more luxries than
most poor people?
What do you think of a police officer that shoots and kills a bad guy? Police
do that often to protect, would this mean you think all Police are violent?
What about Waco and how all those men, women and children were killed?
Should we treat the agents that did that with compassion? If not then you
would have to think it is 'ok' for government to use force but not an
average citizen?
A friend of mine growing up's father used to beat on him. Then,
he got off alchohol. Violence stopped.
Good for your friend but violence is a learned behavior, alcohol just
increased the severity of violence. Self defense is an instinct. Look at
animals...say birds. If you see a squirrel trying to invade a nest full
of babies, the birds will do whatever they have to do to protect their
young, and yes I have seen them kill. It is an instinct.
I've talked my way out of pretty bad situations before. I mentioned
them earlier. (the guys pulling guns on my friend and me and also the
guys hassling/assaulting my friends and me.) It depends upon your reading
of the situation.
Just from reading this paragraph I get the feeling you may have a fear of
guns? Would that be a correct statement? I had someone pull a gun on me
too. I also witnessed a self inflicted fatal shooting to the head. That gave me a HUGE
fear of guns, so I can see where as you might be afraid of guns. You have
only seed the 'dark' side of firearms you need to see the other side of
it, and yes there is a lighter side to guns believe it or not.
I am geniunely curious to know how two people can read the bible
such totally different ways.
The same way two people see firearms even after reading the facts.
------------------
Sandys' Homepage
RKBA forums
We are as one as we all are the same fighting for one cause -Metallica
Join us at the TFL meet August 12&13
[This message has been edited by Miss Demeanors (edited May 25, 2000).]
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
Folkbabe,
Apparently you lump many things into the category of violence. There is a fundamental difference between unprovoked violent aggression and self defence through violent means. Let me caution you in one particular area so that you will be able to maintain your pacific principles intact. There is the possibility that your assailant may be an extreme asthmatic or allergic to capsicum. In either case, the use of pepper spray may result in the death of the individual. So you can't use that for defense. Same thing goes for shouting for help while you're being raped. I might be the one who comes to help and I would not care about the longevity of your attacker. So your actions would lead to the death of your sacred rapist. Same thing goes for grappling with them or striking them. It's not like the movies in real life.
ANY defensive action such as throwing them to the ground or striking them which is sufficient to render them unable to hurt you carries with it the potential to lethally injure. So you can't even struggle with peace of mind. What about if you restrict your defensive actions to running away? Well, goodness, what if that sacred human being tripped on the curb while chasing you and broke his neck or fractured his skull? Wouldn't you feel responsible? Really, in keeping with your principles, the only solution if attacked is to cooperate. Climb down into the trench peacefully.
The author F. Paul Wilson said it better than I could. These are my basic principles:
"I will offer aggression toward no human being. In the event of violent physical aggression I will retaliate without hesitation, without reservation, and without quarter until one of two events occur. Either my assailant is rendered physically incapable or psychologically incapable of ever attacking me again."
------------------
Byron Quick
Apparently you lump many things into the category of violence. There is a fundamental difference between unprovoked violent aggression and self defence through violent means. Let me caution you in one particular area so that you will be able to maintain your pacific principles intact. There is the possibility that your assailant may be an extreme asthmatic or allergic to capsicum. In either case, the use of pepper spray may result in the death of the individual. So you can't use that for defense. Same thing goes for shouting for help while you're being raped. I might be the one who comes to help and I would not care about the longevity of your attacker. So your actions would lead to the death of your sacred rapist. Same thing goes for grappling with them or striking them. It's not like the movies in real life.
ANY defensive action such as throwing them to the ground or striking them which is sufficient to render them unable to hurt you carries with it the potential to lethally injure. So you can't even struggle with peace of mind. What about if you restrict your defensive actions to running away? Well, goodness, what if that sacred human being tripped on the curb while chasing you and broke his neck or fractured his skull? Wouldn't you feel responsible? Really, in keeping with your principles, the only solution if attacked is to cooperate. Climb down into the trench peacefully.
The author F. Paul Wilson said it better than I could. These are my basic principles:
"I will offer aggression toward no human being. In the event of violent physical aggression I will retaliate without hesitation, without reservation, and without quarter until one of two events occur. Either my assailant is rendered physically incapable or psychologically incapable of ever attacking me again."
------------------
Byron Quick
It is my considered opinion, having dealt with trolls and sh!t-disturbers for some years, that further discussion with Folkbabe is pointless. Our rebuttals to her are met with blithe assurances that we're less evolved than herself, simply because we choose to meet aggression with in-kind retribution.
We're now at 116K. If anyone starts Part VI, be prepared to receive lashes with a wet Bore Snake.
We're now at 116K. If anyone starts Part VI, be prepared to receive lashes with a wet Bore Snake.
- Status