Why do you have guns - Part IV

Status
Not open for further replies.
I wish what happened to you "RAPED" did not happen, I wish you had been carrying a gun, and I wish you could be one of the reasons to continue to carry a gun, instead of a reason to carry a gun. :(

My wife was attacked while she slept in our own home, if she did not have that handgun under her pillow......well, you know where I am going.:0

------------------
"The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, becuse the whole body of the people are armed"
Noah Webster

www.2ndamdlvr.homestead.com/home.html
 
Folkbabe: You said that You would not kill a man trying to brutally rape You because " he is still a human being" . I think You miss the point, that he is NOT a human being- He has in fact resigned from humanity and civilized society! He has decided, instead to be an uncivilized animal, and as such, is not entitled to the considerations due to the civilized.
crankshaft
 
Thanks all for the minor adjustment of terms and major adjustment of atmosphere. Now we're cookin' with gas!

folkbabe-
I doubt that you are trying to bait here. In fact, I find your positions, responses and articulation quite refreshing for a "Pacifist". (Note I use a capital "P", as I believe you represent the best and original meaning of the term.) Please carry on...even if we agree to disagree, both sides win from the understanding.

Ledbetter-
I haven't had occasion for the words in some months. You deserve 'em now: "Class Act, guy". Thanks.
Rich
 
Folkbabe.... Here's a couple of things you might be interested in reading.
http://www.starseedcreations.com/RKBA/tao_of_gun.html

That is a link to he TAO of Gun. It is an essay which discusses firearms, gun control and violence/non-voilence from a New Age perspective. From the tone and timber of your posts I believe this essay may speak to you in a way most of the people on TFL are incapable of.

The other thing you might be interested in in a book called Mila 18 by Leon Uris. Mila 18 is a fictionalized historical account of the Jewish resistance in the Warsaw ghetto during WWII. It presents themes of violent and non-violent resistance, capitulation, and documents the level of resistance that a few poorly armed defenders can achieve.
 
Folkbabe,

Thank you for the kind words, I deeply appreciate that. I didn't post that for sympathy though, I posted it to try and help you understand what an actual attack is like. Many women can imagine the worst happening to them but they don't get the full feeling of it. In reading your post, I don't think you get the feeling. I would bet my life your attitude would change if you are ever in a situation like mine.

I respect your right to honor human life but in my opinion this man was not human. He was a cold hearted ruthless man, unfortunatley with a beating heart. That would be about the only thing that made him human. I've never felt such a presence of evil in my life before. People like him and child molestors ARE a work of the Devil. I'm not sure what faith you are but in the Catholic church criminals like him are considered evil and controlled by the Devil. Of course other religions may not see it that way, which is fine, but you must admit a person like this is NOT a religious person.

Why do we want people like that in our society? What other means are you going to punish him with? He was NOT caught, he is most likely still out there living a great life with no guilt what so ever. The only other justifiable punnishment I can come up with is permantley removing his male parts. Even if he sat in jail for 10 years, that is nothing compared to the torture I have been through. But how am I to do that? This was years ago and he got away. Are you suggesting we just let these criminals get away with it if there is no chance of catching him (which will most likely be the case)?

My curiousity has to ask you this question: What would you have done had that been you?

What about innocent children that are raped? What if someone broke into your home beat the hell out of you and started raping your daughter (if you had a child)? Would you stand there and allow this thing to get away with it because you don't feel its worth it to take another life? Is it better for that child to live with the nightmares or is it better for YOU, as an adult, to do whatever it takes to protect that child? Especially YOUR child, your flesh and blood, a life YOU created. To be honest I would be afraid to send my child to your home knowing you would just let something like this happen and not take reasonable measures.

Please don't get me wrong here, I NEVER want to kill anyone, it would be a terrible thing and I am sure I would feel the guilt the rest of my life. But after being in a situation like this I would take away a crime led life if it meant saving an innocent life. I think God would forgive me for that because self defense is a God given human right.

I thought he was going to kill me after he got his kicks, I honestly did. Perhaps if the voices were not heard he might have, that I will never know. When you start seeing your life flashing in front of you, your attitude WILL change. It is just ashame it takes that to realize it. Many rapes CAN and WILL be prevented because more and more women are becoming aware of the dangers out there, they are willing to take any measures to save theirselves. Rapists thrive on women like yourself. They *know* you will not kill them, therefore they will chose you as a victim. If they know you have a weapon they are going to hop along to the next potential victim. Rapists don't want to be killed any more than you don't want to be killed. That is why they chose unarmed, helpless victims.

For one minute put yourself in a rapist shoes. Would you choose woman #1 that is walking down the street in a community where people are not allowed to be armed outside their home OR would you choose woman #2 who is walking down a street in a community that allows people to carry a concealed weapon? If you pick the wrong door you are dead, if you pick the right door, you get some free sex. I, personally, think it is a good idea to allow all citizens the right to carry a concealed weapon. If I were a rapist I think I would take my hobby elsewhere.

I can see as clear as day why women carry guns in their purses and cars, because there are many more people like that man out there lurking, waiting for the next victim.

I hope I am making some sense here and opening a door that you thought didn't exsist.

Peace to you too.
 
Raped, thank you for your eloquent posts. You've stated these issues better than anyone else ever could.

Please take a look at www.mothersarms.org . It is a fine, new group that is trying to educate women on this same topic. They need women like you to help others see the truth.

Take care. Regards from AZ
 
Ma'am, I want to thank you for the courage you showed by telling your story, and for reminding us of why so many of us choose to train with and carry the "rescue equipment" that might one day be used to stop such an attack. However, I do have to take you to task on one thing. Your call sign is completely wrong. "Raped" describes what happened, not who you are. May I suggest "Survivor" because that sums you up quite well.

I hope that you will become a regular contributor to this board. You are the type of person that we all would be honored to call friend.

[This message has been edited by buzz_knox (edited May 24, 2000).]
 
Folkbabe, I respect your Nirvana-like optimism regarding the "sanctity" (in a pagan sense, of course) of all human life.
You are not alone in your point of view, since many great men and women throughout history have shared and practiced it without an ounce of hypocrisy.

I guess I am more of a social darwinist. I tend to think that any human being who decides to violate his side of the social contract to the extent of Raped's attacker, keeping him among us does a disservice to humanity as a whole.

You say that you wouldn't kill someone who was forcing himself on you. Fine. What if he was forcing himself on your 4-year-old daughter? On on your 70-year-old mother? Would you still value the dignity of the attacker's life as equal to that of your daughter/mother?

In his excellent book "Principles of Ethics", the British philosopher Herbert Spencer clearly distinguishes ethical behavior from what makes an individual (of most species) a rogue. This, mind you, without any mention of Religion or revealed morality, which is not relevant to this thread.

Anything that contributes to rearing healthy and intelligent offspring is considered ethical. On the contrary, hindrance to the health of our young, including no doubt rape, incest and abuse, is considered unethical and makes an individual "unfit".

So: you are standing over a drunken stranger, that, just for fun is brutally raping your 4-year-old daughter. Her pleading, terror-stricken eyes turn to you. There is a gun (/knife/basebell bat) just within reach.

What do you choose to be?



------------------
Private gun ownership is the capital sin in the left's godless religion. Crime is merely a venial mistake.

Check out these gals: www.sas-aim.org

[This message has been edited by 416Rigby (edited May 24, 2000).]
 
Raped,

I gotta agree with buzz, you need a new handle.

I usually try to keep unsolicited advice to a minimum since I haven't walked the proverbial mile in your moccasins, but why describe yourself based on those terrible experiences?

Seems it may continue the victimization to some degree to let that define you, even if it is just your "e-persona."

"Braveheart" or "Survivor" or "That Which Does Not Kill Me Makes Me Stronger" seems more appropriate.

Good luck and wishing you the best,

Jack 99

P.S. Folkbabe and her kind are incurable gullibles. Unfortunately, I have a few people like this in my family. They are perpetual victims because they keep thinking they can "make a difference." My Godmother is short almost $100k because she thought she could "reform" a juvinile delinquent. He played along, found out she had an extensive coin collection and took off with it. She's still trying to figure out "what went wrong".
 
Why do I own weapons...including firearms?
1) I was raised in a household with weapons.
A very peaceful household.
2) My right to life (not given by a piece of parchment, a legislature, or other body) gives me the derivative right to defend my life. It is not subject to the opinion of others, amendments, plebiscites, mandates or any of the other oppressive, statist blather people think up.
3) I enjoy shooting firearms.

What would make me more secure? (With the unexpressed but implied goal that I would then willingly give up my firearms)

A fundamental transcendent change in the nature of the human species. Good luck.

Folkbabe, I noticed in reading over this thread that one of the reasons you would not kill under any circumstances was the ability to claim "the moral high ground." Perhaps that is true under the premises of your morality. It is not true under the premises of my morality. I once entered a stranger's house because of the screams and moans coming through the open front door. The granddaughter's boyfriend was in the process of thoroughly beating the old grandfather. The old man was just sitting in a chair moaning while blood drooled out of his mouth and down his chest. I gave the assailant a choice, change his behavior or die. He changed. Anyway, by my morals, to continue to allow this human being to continue his assault on the helpless would have been the height of immorality, even if the only means of stopping this human being's behavior was lethal force.

I respect your principles but your moral "high ground" is a moral sink hole when viewed by my principles.

------------------
Byron Quick
 
Oh, and the genetic congruence of the bonobo chimpanzees. To get a better view of the meaning of percentages of genetic divergence...the DNA of the common field mouse and a human is 80%. Miniscule divergence means very big differences in this field.

------------------
Byron Quick
 
Ledbetter,
Your joke is a variation of the phrase used by Jesus: "Throwing pearls before swine".


I don't know about anyone else's, but my Bible says "though shalt not MURDER" and I live by the code of the Bible.
Not all killing is murder.


Folkbabe, with all respect, reminds me of a slippery politican. Especially concerning gun control and the fact that when we vote some of these politicians in they insist that they are no threat to law abiding people owning guns (The MMM said the same thing at first). Somehow that agenda changes later.
 
DC- Thanks for covering that part. I get sick of the misuse of the quote about chimps having %97 of human DNA. All this does is expose a very infantile understanding of genetics. MANY organisms share well over %90 DNA for a myriad of reasons.

Folkbabe- Your view is interesting, but not realisitc. I welcome you here and it is wonderful and interesting to learn the inner feelings of someone so disconnected from reality. I think we are all learning a lot here. Most of us did not realize that people like youself really existed, and honestly I thank you for enlightening us.
The last pacifist I met was over 10 years ago. He said he would never hurt another person. I asked him what he would do (he was a teen then) if someone broke in, was raping his little sister and stated that he planned to kill his parents. He didn't have much os an answer, but he did say that he refused to use violence, even in that situation. I told him that he had obviously never been any such situation. It is easy to theorize about how you would act when you have never been in such a situation and you believe deep inside that you never will be.


Folkbabe, do you have kids? That may change things a lot.


My wife is taking a rape self defense class. Every woman in there thought that it would "never happen to her". And, if it did happen, they would not fight back. Well, it did happen. And, guess what? They are all now carrying weapons and taking self defense classes. It is real easy to say what you would do when it has never happened and you have convinced yourself that it never will. Self defense courses and shooting classes are FULL of women who thought it would never happen and did not plan to resist. Once it did happen, their rosy-colored glasses were lifted and they are determined that it will never happen again, period.

Also, Folkbabe, you benefit from those that do fight back, because the rapist (for one example) does not have any way to discern who is armed, who will fight back, and who will not. You benefit from this becauswe the rapist is afraid to attack you because he does not know that you will not fight back.
Wear a shirt and bumber sticker that says "extreme pacifist, will not resist" and see how long you keep them off. If every woman acted like yourself, then rapists would run rampant. They do not, because everyone once in a while, they meet someone that fights back (such as Chris's wife who thankfully had a gun handy two weeks ago when a man mounted her in her bed and started beating her severely....with maybe her kids next in line). Whether or not you choose to accept it, you are being protected by the people that use violence to resist. I guarantee that Chris's wife's attacker will think twice about breaking into another home and attacking someone in their sleep. You benefit from his fear of people like her. He certainly is not afraid of attacking people like you, in fact he depends on people like you for his carreer to continue.

On the same note, you are living under the benefits of violent resistance. Assuming you are in America, you are living under freedom that was gained by violent resistance. Whether you want to believe it or not, everything you are today and everything you are allowed to do was bought and paid for by the blood of others.
In short, in both examples above, you can afford to be a pacifist because others have spilt their blood to make you safe.






Ps- Off topic drift: there is a saying that "some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could accept them". Among other things here, your statement that a man and a woman as parents are not proven to raise better kids fits right in this catagory. It does not take a genius to look around at all the kids today that are screwed up from broken homes and single parent (mom) child rearing. One good study group for research, (as if a little common sense where not enough) would be the black culture in America. 3/4 of the black population is now being raised without a dad. They have plenty of moms, aunts, grandmas etc, and they have no shortage of people to raise them. You can't tell me that you don't see a problem in young black men concerning their roles as male figures? Where do you think they got this problem? Possibly from having no male role model in the home to teach them how to be a man?
Like I said, "some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could understand them", and as a very well educated person I can tell you that this saying is too true.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top