Why do some people look behind them....

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I do like the idea of teaching students to look around through the course of shooting to make them habitual in checking there surroundings. Some are WAY to anal about it though. I see some doing the same move every time they shoot. I read about a police officer who was shot in a shootout with his revolver. After shooting his first six rounds he emptied the cases into his hand and looked at the ground to find the brass bucket. He finally realized there wasn't one and dropped them on the ground. He then stuck his hand in his pocket to find his reloads instead of on his belt since he normally kept them in his pocket when practicing. In another instance an officer reported all his fired cases were in his pocket. He normally put them there when shooting so he didn't have to pick them up so in a shoot out he took the time, habitually, to put them in his picket rather than let then fall on the ground. I guess I'm trying to say its good to try to teach students to avoid tunnel vision and to be aware but I wouldn't teach them a repetitive movement that will continue at an inopportune time. I wouldn't want a student shooting then stopping to look around habitually while the threat is still right in front of them. If you teach it, and they practice it, no matter how counter intuitive, they just might do it.
 
If you teach it, and they practice it, no matter how counter intuitive, they just might do it.
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I think it depends on the situation. If you have your back to a wall then looking behind you are just taking your eye of what you should be concerting on. Is it not common sense to check around you depending on the situation. And not every time you shoot the firearm.
 
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I agree with FireForged..... I think its non sense and people are just trying to look tacticool. That turtling posture is just over doing it and yeah you might flinch when you get spooked but you won't stay turtled up the entire time...... you won't know how your body will react until you are put into a stressful situation. If you think training will takeover then why not practice firing at targets behind you instead of just looking back.....
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Sooo, what's your suggestion? Since people will act how they train, how do you train them to be aware and drop the target fixation?

I don't know about anyone else, but when I look before holstering, I'm actually looking. It's not just a movement. It's knowing that if that critical moment comes, my head will actually be in the direction of any other possible threat.

This is a new trend I'm seeing online. Basically, any newish type of training that a lot of people do immediately being called "Tacticool" without really considering what's going on. Some of it, I would agree with you. The Magpul "flip" for example. But looking around and behind you isn't just some "tacticool" movement, it serves a very important purpose. If you haven't trained for it, and the critical moment comes, it's VERY likely, you won't look for any other threats, and that puts you in danger.
 
I don't know about anyone else, but when I look before holstering, I'm actually looking. It's not just a movement. It's knowing that if that critical moment comes, my head will actually be in the direction of any other possible threat.
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I think it would make more sense to keep looking at the target you are shooting at until you are sure the target is no longer a threat. You will feel a bit of a prat if the target you have just put down shoots you when you are busy looking around you. That's of course you survive.

PS Who are these people setting themselves up as experts on what way you should react in a fire fight. I take it they are all experts who have being in numerous fire fights and have years of experience on how to react in dangerous situations. Or maybe they have read a few books ans decided they are experts.
 
Hahaha that video is just how I picture a bunch of "Tacticool" people grouped together! thanks for the laugh!!! I would say that if you want to "act" it out, then you better "play" it out....go to a real training facility. You should be practicing at shooting a real life person... with simunitions of course. You'd be amazed at how different your body reacts at shooting at paper targets and then shooting at live ones. I'd put money down that most will be hitting nothing but their targets legs if anything at all. Funny how a little stress throws everything off:cool: and that's not even with real bullets!
 
I think it would make more sense to keep looking at the target you are shooting at until you are sure the target is no longer a threat. You will feel a bit of a prat if the target you have just put down shoots you when you are busy looking around you. That's of course you survive.
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That's what the training is for. If the threat is still moving, I wouldn't be looking for another threat.

I agree that a lot of people train for it to be part of the "dance moves." For me, it's to get into the mindset that just because one threat is gone, doesn't mean there aren't other threats to worry about.

No training is perfect. No training can get you prepared for every situation. There are an infinite number of what ifs that can show why the 360 check doesn't always work. But for me it's a mindset. It's the mindset that just because the immediate threat is down, it doesn't mean there aren't other threats to consider.
 
Jskd82, unless you have access to a 360 range, how do you propose to have shooters engage targets to their rear, unless in the context of something akin to El Presidente?

You suggest it like it's the simplest thing, but most ranges are simply not set up to accommodate that kind of a drill.

The indoor range used by my IDPA club has three bays, with steel reinforced walls. We are still not able to do a 360 shoot-house, but we are able to set up simulated corridors and side doors, and engage targets to either side. Even so, for safety of the Safety Officer / Observer and the other shooters behind us, we can only turn about 80 degrees to either side of straight down-range.

Your derision, and your suggestions which imply that training to engage targets to the rear should be so easy as to be commonplace, make me doubt you've had much training or range experience.

(Note that the only 360 training I've had access to was at Fort Jackson, using M-16's with Blank Firing Adapters. It's hard to find 360 live ammo training.)
 
manta49, if you have to ask who Massad Ayoob and Rob Pincus are (both are cops, very well known instructors, grandmaster competitive shooters - Mas is a grandmaster in ALL IDPA categories, and gun writers - I have been reading articles and books by Mas for 28 years) then your ability to give advice on this topic is definitely questionable.
 
MLeake said:
Jskd82, unless you have access to a 360 range, how do you propose to have shooters engage targets to their rear, unless in the context of something akin to El Presidente?

You suggest it like it's the simplest thing, but most ranges are simply not set up to accommodate that kind of a drill.

The indoor range used by my IDPA club has three bays, with steel reinforced walls. We are still not able to do a 360 shoot-house, but we are able to set up simulated corridors and side doors, and engage targets to either side. Even so, for safety of the Safety Officer / Observer and the other shooters behind us, we can only turn about 80 degrees to either side of straight down-range.

Your derision, and your suggestions which imply that training to engage targets to the rear should be so easy as to be commonplace, make me doubt you've had much training or range experience.

(Note that the only 360 training I've had access to was at Fort Jackson, using M-16's with Blank Firing Adapters. It's hard to find 360 live ammo training.)
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Do as you please sir.... I just hope "tacticool looking" people never find the day they need to rely on their "training" skills to save their life.

Like I said above there are training facilities that would be much more effective at learning. IDPA competitions isn't one of them.... that just my opinion though.
 
Jskd82, you make strong claims, but don't back them in any way.

I know some guys who do get access to 360 ranges, but you don't strike me as one of them from your attitude or your attempts at mysterious cool.
 
MLeake said:
manta49, if you have to ask who Massad Ayoob and Rob Pincus are (both are cops, very well known instructors, grandmaster competitive shooters - Mas is a grandmaster in ALL IDPA categories, and gun writers - I have been reading articles and books by Mas for 28 years) then your ability to give advice on this topic is definitely questionable.
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LOL just because he doesn't know about someone or hasn't read the persons book doesn't mean he doesn't have knowledge on the topic... I'm not saying he does but your statement is pretty ignorant.
 
MLeake said:
Jskd82, you make strong claims, but don't back them in any way.

I know some guys who do get access to 360 ranges, but you don't strike me as one of them from your attitude or your attempts at mysterious cool.
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I'm not trying to be cool or never claimed to be anything:eek::cool:;)
 
Anybody who claims to follow handgun defensive theory who has never heard of Ayoob or Pincus is immediately suspect.

I am not a fan of Gabe Suarez, but I have heard of the man and have some idea of who he is and what he teaches.

I have not met Clint Smith, but am aware of him.

Also, if manta49 were really serious, rather than attempting to be dismissive, he could have very easily found out who the people he was dismissing were. He didn't, so he ended up looking foolish. That's on him.

As for you, the "LOL" really removes you from the category you'd like to imply you are in.
 
Jskd82 said,
I'm not trying to be cool or never claimed to be anything
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Well, now that you have gone back and edited that post, you aren't claiming anything... Nice revisionist history.

You implied that your training was much better than that provided by Rob or Mas, right up until you edited that post. You implied that you were high-speed low-drag... and then you come up with LOL and smilies...

Frankly, you are going on my ignore list.
 
MLeake said:
Anybody who claims to follow handgun defensive theory who has never heard of Ayoob or Pincus is immediately suspect.

I am not a fan of Gabe Suarez, but I have heard of the man and have some idea of who he is and what he teaches.

I have not met Clint Smith, but am aware of him.

Also, if manta49 were really serious, rather than attempting to be dismissive, he could have very easily found out who the people he was dismissing were. He didn't, so he ended up looking foolish. That's on him.

As for you, the "LOL" really removes you from the category you'd like to imply you are in.
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Keep ASSuming;) don't think I ever implied anything ..... unlike you who "reads books" so that must make you an "expert" and knowing someone automatically gives you street creds:confused::rolleyes: Good luck I'm done with this conversation!
 
Yes, I read books, and shoot IDPA...

... and qualified Expert pistol and rifle with the Navy and the Army....

... and have attended shooting courses taught by Mas Ayoob, as well as by ODA guys from a CJSOTF I worked with...

... and building clearing courses at Fort Jackson...

... and another shooting course at Fort Bragg, taught by AFSOC instructors...

... and training while attached to a security unit...

... and none of the 1st MAR, Combat Controller, SEAL, or SF guys I know talk like you do.
 
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