Why do so many sound so anti-LEO?

Status
Not open for further replies.
A correction on Ruby Ridge: unidentified people opened fire and killed a family pet. What's a man to do other than shoot back? It is normal practice for kids old enough to go armed and certainly self-defense is an appropriate use for guns, no? I only regret light casualties that FBI sustained in that engagement: I would have hoped that the surviving agents would get a little less heavy-handed next time the harrassed peaceful if not very likable people.

------------------
Oleg "cornered rat" Volk (JPFO,NRA)

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
I respect the average LEO as much as he/she respects the 1st, 2nd, and 4th Amendments. which in most cases is next to nil. the American people, as a whole, are simply not going to give respect to organizations that enforce the law but do not obey it.

law enforcement is not like pro basketball, or barbering, or interior decorating. bad law enforcement costs lives. unfortunately, many police departments have a "What, me worry?" attitude. we critique NBA players, the Postal Service, and how our neighbors mow their lawn; yet those are inconsequential activities compared to no-knock raids, perjury (both on warrants and on the witness stand), driving-while-ethnic traffic stops, etc.

as for the FBI's clues about the supposed child molestation, that bullcrap came from the ATF, who knew which of Reno's buttons to push in order to get authorization for the full-dress military invasion. and the BDs were armed because they got an anonymous phone call (some claim from an ATF agent) that they were going to be attacked by anti-cult extremists.

hell, if we're going to go after a secretive cult with an established track record of child molestation, lets go after the Catholic Church. they fit most criteria for a "cult": the Church claims to be the one and only terrestrial intermediary between man and God; fixations with icons and statuary; secret communications with worldwide "cells" using encrypted messages; many well-documented cases of child molestation by Church leaders. who is next; rural snake-handling Baptists? Hasidic Jews? Coptic Christians? an old saying come to mind; is your church BATF-approved?

"When Hitler attacked the Jews I was not a Jew, therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the Catholics, I was not a Catholic, and therefore, I was not concerned. And when Hitler attacked the unions and the industrialists, I was not a member of the unions and I was not concerned. Then, Hitler attacked me and the Protestant church--and there was nobody left to be concerned."
Martin Niemoller (1892-1984) in Congressional Record 14 October 1968, p. 31636




[This message has been edited by Ivanhoe (edited February 09, 2000).]
 
Mineral man:
I highly suggest renting Waco: rules of engagement from Blockbuster prior to forming opinions based on information gained from the Network media, and the LE Agencies responsible. If there were crimes against children, then it was specifically and ONLY a state LE duty only. The Sheriff had investigated Koresh on these charges, and no charges were substantiated. As for "going in there" Would you first gas those children you're trying to protect with a leathal dose of gas prior to "saving" them (by burning)? That's what the FBI did. They knew that nobody makes Children's gas masks, so therefore the Davidians could not have protected the children. Since when did the 1st amendment not apply to those whom you deem "Crazy"? Just because they are of a strange religion, and live differently does not mean they should be gassed and burnt by the Government. Sounds NAZIish to me. As for Ruby Ridge, same applies. I was kinda proud that somebody can be different and still hold the right to their next breath just as precious as the next man. We are all different, and if different is a reason to murder (not kill) a man's wife and son, then I must have missed that passage in the Constitution. The Marshalls did not identify themselves as LEO's. They just fired on Weaver's dog. The boy shot back out of fear. He originally had the rifle because he thought the dog was barking at a varmint. Again, do yourself a favor, and rent the Waco movie ASAP. You're only getting half the story 'til you do.
 
"they were nuts, and the FBI had reason to believe that Koresh was routinely raping little children."

Yeah, yeah. And those twisted Jews are committing all kinds of perversities, so let's kill them all. Hitler, 1938 or so.

As for the "abused children," they don't have to worry about being being abused anymore seeing as the benevolent government agents have burned them to ashes.

LEO's jpb is to enforce laws, many of which I don't like. Therefore I don't trust many of the LEOs. And I know from personal experience that many LEOs will play fast and loose with the facts to get the goods on someone they don't like. Maybe not the cops on this forum, but it DOES happen.
 
Erik,

This is a question that I stopped asking a while back. The main problem I think comes from misunderstanding and generalizing about what most of us do on a day to day basis.

Needanak's post is the epitome of what I am talking about. You and I both know that 90% of what we do is to take a lenient, more descretionary approach to a situation, not "the most harsh manner that the state allows." The reasons for this vary from officer to officer. Some do it because it means less paperwork, some do it because they think that people deserve more than one chance to screw up.

I think if you polled all the LEOs in the country you would find that only a very small percentage have ever been involved in a "no-knock" warrant and less than half have ever worked a checkpoint.. most of those that have were most certainly involved in sobriety checks, not random "your papers please!" roadblocks.

In any given week, I assure you that officers let more "criminals" (in the eyes of state code) go than they arrest. Criminals are everywhere, as are people actually violating traffic laws. We do not need to create crimes, plant evidence nor "trick" people in order to do our jobs. I'm sure that the depts I've worked with are not the only ones were 75+% of an officer's work is generated by people calling us.

------------------
-Essayons
 
Thank you for the responses. Many responses I look at and wonder "what happened here?", but I asked the question, after all. I was involved in law enforcement for a brief time, and decided that it was not for me. I come from a family filled with LEOs, military guys, and firemen- on one side of the family tree. I keep in contact with my former LEO friends. I also have many fiends who hold decidedly un-flattering opinions of LEOs- so I guesse I'm well rounded... But I support LEOs, they do a job desperately needed and for far less than most would wish for.

Erik
 
fwiw i never said anything about planting evidence. but the exact things that i complained about happen every day.

[This message has been edited by needanak (edited February 09, 2000).]
 
For the record: Our Rob is part of that SMALL percentage of LEO's that has participated in "...random 'check you papers please!'" searches and THAT is MY point. (I wish so badly that the "search" feature went back far enough for me to give you a link to that discussion)

A friendly encounter at the range or at TFL does not show one's true colors. I'm sure if I unknowingly met any of the Waco entry team members in a neutral/friendly setting we'd probably hit it right off and be great friends ('till I found out his line of work).

**Warning: do not misunderstand this next part. I intend NO racial slant!!**
It's like black friends I've had-- felt I knew them like brothers until they got around their other black friends where their behavior became near unrecognizable.

I've tested this with cops and you can too!
When you meet one for the first time, pretend to have no concern for civil liberties, freedoms, etc. In fact play the part of the macho drag-all-suspects-out-of-the-car-by-their-hair type guy and watch your new LEO aquaintance fall right into your trap! THEN you get a glimpse of the kind of talk that goes on in "cop bars", police station locker rooms, etc.
 
I've seen their job. I don't want it. I will continue to afford them the same level of courtesy and respect that I desire. Are there jerks in the LE community? Yep, I'm sure of it - they're also everywhere else, too. I'd suggest that anyone who views cops as trigger-happy/lazy/gung-ho/etc. do at least one "ride-along" for a shift and see what these folks really have to put up with on a daily basis.

------------------
"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erik:
I'm curious, so many of those who post here sound hateful toward the police in America...
[/quote]

Cops are the first line of government authority. I think most Americans (especially those who believe in the Bill of Rights) are mistrustful of government, so, like it or not...cops are the immediate target of that mistrust.

Now, there are some cops that are arrogant as hell. Those types piss me off...
For example, on I 83 (in northern Maryland), it's frequent to see the cops cruising down the hiway at a high rate of speed...no lights, no siren. I realize there are sometimes when a "silent" approach" is required, but this is too often. So, this is the state cops violating the same laws that are they are suppose to be enforcing. So, why should we respect them?
Also, if a civilian has an accident that results in a death or injury, they are normally charged with a crime. If a cop, in a high speed pursuit, has an accident that results in death or injury, it's a "horrible" mistake. (look at the Diallo incident, for example (41 shots...41!!!!)
Also, the Perez example in L.A.

I know it's a few bad apples...but the really stink up the barrel.

If there is mutual respect, I never have a concern. But as soon as a cop starts some sarcasm, I get right irritated.


[This message has been edited by Ezeckial (edited February 09, 2000).]
 
The Bozo Factor is pandemic.

"It only takes one clown to #$%^&*( it up for everyone".

That's the situation here. Most cops become cops because they want to help people,not because they like beating up minorities or collecting bribes.

BTW, Baltimore is burying another one, Sgt Prothero was off duty when he attempted to stop an armed robbery with four perps. May he rest in peace, and may those bastards burn in Hell, and speedily.

As for govt types that oppress folks and shoot unarmed women holding babies, they're not cops,period.

Dave, AKA
Lt B D McCracken
Md Dept of Public Safety(ret)
 
Erik,
Like or not, LEO's are still agents of the government. While they might be OK persons, their employer oftimes is a corrupt, liberal, anti-gun POS. :( They are charged with enforcing the laws, and taking orders from that same POS. I'm sure you can see that there is room for a little mistrust there.

------------------
Just as there is no such thing as too much fun,
there is no such thing as owning just one gun!!!

Off my meds (quit smoking), armed to the teeth, and loose on an unsuspecting society!!!
 
When I first became a cop we were told that most civilians would view us as being able to take away their freedom. This is of course true to a point. In my personal experience I`ve run into hate, resentment, fear, hostility, jealousy and just plain curiosity.
When I put on the uniform for the first time, I found out that I was not just a face in the crowd anymore. I was expected to take action. Sorta like firemen. They run into a fire while everyone else is running out. One of the main differences is we mostly work without direct supervision. We can`t fall back and say the boss made the decision most of the time. Then the big bosses, and many civilians, who have the luxury of being nowhere near what happened, will tell us what we did wrong. The police will always be the whipping boy of politics.
When the ship hits the sand, the public turns to us. After they`re safe again, we'll be Monday morning quarterbacked by people who wouldn`t dream of getting their hands dirty. After all, we have public servants to do that. We had a saying back in the `70`s, "You woldn`t give up your life for a million dollars. Cops do it for a lot less."
Most of us live our lives anonymously and to be singled out is a bit unnerving for awhile. I`ll never forget a couple of days before graduation, we were required to wear our full uniform at the academy. So I`m walking, ok, maybe strutting, up E.20th St. in Manhattan and an old lady gets out of a cab. She spies me all resplendent in my blues and yells to me, "Hey sonny, how do I get to....." Kinda ego deflating but a good lesson.
Are some cops a******s? Sure. In NYC there`s 40,000 cops. Gotta be one or two, right? Probably in direct ratio to how many are on this board.
 
For those who can't (or won't) do a "ride-along" with your local LEO's, and think they ought to be out catching "real criminals" instead of bothering you for going just a couple miles over the speed limit, Fred Reed has done it for you. Check out his column at:

http://www.fredoneverything.com/yyBehavior.html

While you're there, read the rest of his "cop columns." Keep in mind we're not talking about DEA/BATF/IRS here, but the average cop you're likely to see in your rearview mirror...

------------------
"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
 
I live in a very small township. There are three police officers here to keep the peace. The worse thing that ever happens around here is an occasional auto accident. The three officers are great men. They have the kindest personality you could ask for. I love sitting around the bar or coffee table and having an occasional drink with them.

Needless to say, I WOULD NEVER TRUST THEM WITH MY LIFE. Nice friends, good cop? No. Unfortunately, they are overweight and if they ever had to draw their firearms, I could dig a tunnel to China and back in the same time frame.
Does it mean I do not respect them? Of course I do. They lay their lives on the line for our society. They do not abuse their powers and most of all, they are great citizens. Would I rather have a not so nice but physically fit officer who I could trust with my life? Of course, who wouldn't? Unfortunately, it's not a perfect world. Therefore, I have my CCW and three cops who are good friends.


------------------
Svt
NRA, GOA, VFW
Son's Place

Rangers Lead the Way
 
Why! They have created a self-protecting society where they are above the law and do what they please. Have seen many examples.
I will never get over Littleton where they pranced around showing off all their black gear yet did nothing to help the kids being slaughtered.
Remember the way they supported their actions at Ruby Ridge? And Waco etc!
God Bless the deserving LEOs (especially those on GT and TFL) but to those who have created this elitist society "eat solids and die".

------------------
 
1) A bad cashier at a store or a nasty person on-line is merely annoying. A bad cop is possibly lethal to his supposed employers (the people).

2) One of my friends worked as a volunteer firefighter in California in the 80s. He could have well empathized with cops who, like him , risked their lives. Pity his long hair caused him to get stopped, spread on the ground and frisked 2-3 timers per week (!) by cops "looking for drugs". A little hard to be trusting...and yet he views police as allies.

3) We are not out to get cops: initiating hostilities is against our credo. At thje same time, we have reasons to treat them with no less suspicion that other people...actually, another person would hardly get away with abusing us while an LEO, esp. a federal one, could.

4) I wonder how many people practice not showing fear around them, just like with dogs...

5) Honest,decent LEOs exist and may even be an overwhelming majority...Just like armed self-defense, cases of cops saving lives do not make it into print but abuses do. Are we being led astray by the media OR do the personal observations confirm the print version?
 
This is such a volatile issue, with as many opinions as there are people. A lot of different views expressed here from “Hug an LEO” to “They are dirtbags”.

My grandfather was a seasoned cop in San Antonio before most people on this board were born. There are numerous others in my extended family involved in LE.

Cops certainly have to deal with the unpleasant side of society in their work. That is not justification as to treating all encounters as “bad guys”. The police “shoot themselves in the foot” with this behavior by portraying themselves as abusive and unable to control themselves, as well as bad decision making. Years, maybe decades, of beating people up, planting evidence, false sworn testimony and general misbehavior tend to jade the public on police in general. This is a reputation that a few have earned for more than probably deserve it. This abusive type of behavior has become almost commonplace. What I find particularly alarming is the fact that this type of behavior has escalated to the point where now cops are assaulting and killing other police officers in the rush to “get the bad guy”.

Personally, someone has to “earn” my trust by word and deed. I am generally distrustful of anyone that I do not know, LE or not.

Skyhawk
 
100K. If we must continue poking this sore, go ahead with Part II.

------------------
"If your determination is fixed, I do not counsel you to despair. Few things are impossible to diligence and skill. Great works are performed not by strength, but perseverance."
-- Samuel Johnson
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top