Why do so many sound so anti LEO II

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Ivanhoe -

The little stuff can, in fact, be an important part of crime control and lead to an overall reduction of crime. I suggest you check out the "Broken Windows" theroy of crime control (Created by a Sociologist, not a LEO). In otherwords, by taking care of some of the little stuff you can prevent a lot of the big stuff. I would much rather prevent the crime that solve the crime.

You should also look at the complaints your local community is making. The number one complaints in a lot of areas are. Loud music, speeding and loitering. That is what the public is complaining about. Shouldn't the police listen to public concerns?

Speeding is a safety problem. A large number of accidents are due to speed and also driver inatention. People die because of this. To me that is a big problem. I would rather let 100 property criminals go in exchange for saving one life. I regularly sit in a local school zone and it is not uncommon for me to see folks greatly exceeding the speed limit while children are crossing the street. That to me is a BIG problem.

The whole thing about the police is that there are a huge variety of issues that must be addressed. Law Enforcement is one componenet of the job, however, a greater component is public safety.
 
"The people the police contact trashy lowlifes. They are for the most part a waste of oxygen. Sometimes a little sacrifice on our part is necessary to acheive a larger goal."

a very frightening attitude. i won't mention what group also thought of gypsies in a very similar manner.

get rid of the aclu and le will get so heavy handed that it wouldn't even be funny. neither leos or regular citizens deserve that.

[This message has been edited by needanak (edited February 11, 2000).]
 
Ivan I fear that once again you have missed my point. Perhaps it was all the numbers. I will attmept to make it more simple for you.

Invision yourself as a game warden in a far away enchanted land entrusted with the welfare of the natives. In this land lives the shaggy haired, snaggle toothed Wamboobie. Now Wamboobies for the most part are good critters. However in the particular village you are assigned 97 of the 100 Wamboobies living there have been eating the villagers. It is exceedingly rare that you actually witness one in the act of devourering a villager. Therefore you can only indentify the guilty Wamboobies by stopping and examing them. You have received training to do this and through your experience have became quite proficient at it. Your job and the very lives of the villagers you are sworn to protect depends on you doing this. However, eventhough they do not want to be eaten, a small but very vocal segment complain loudly. They fear that by stopping the Wamboobies you may ocassionaly stop one of the 3 innocent Wamboobies and offend them by taking a few minutes of their time. What do you do? Whom to you feel responsble for the villagers or the Wamboobies? Are you accountable to the preditor or the prey.

Blue Heeler you're right. I should have stayed in bed. :D

PumpBlast thank you. :)

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Gunslinger

We live in a time in which attitudes and deeds once respected as courageous and honorable are now scorned as being antiquated and subversive.
 
Dont get me wrong,I have the utmost respect for LEOs, but here goes...Driving to Ohio, my friend and I were pulled over for speeding in Illinois. The LEO asked my friend to exit our car and sit in the passenger side of the squad car.
Needless to say my friend complied. The cop gives him a ticket for $95 for speeding 30 miles over the limit. My friend tells him to show the Radar reading, LEO says didnt use one. He was actually in the opposite side of the Highway when he said that he noticed us(as he claimed) so how did he know we were speeding without a Radar?
Also I suspect that, since we had a Kansas registration, we would think it not worth our time to go to court all the way in Illinois, and so were easy pickings to meet his 'Day's Quota'for traffic tickets.
Since we were in a rented car, rental charges come close to $90 per day + gas, and the time lost at work, if we tried to go to court.
I have a very strong feeling that the LEO knew this and took advantage.
By the way we were doing 64 miles(Cruise control)in a 65 mile zone.
So the few 'bad apples' do make the rest look bad.
Regards.
Anand.
 
'Slinger,

As a city transit driver for 21 years I have been working with LEO's my entire career. Our Union, the ATU, rents our hall to the Sheriff's association, and I have several friends on the dept. I have noticed a change in attitude by some younger LEO's as of late, however.

My neighbor was recently in a bit of a fix, when he was accused, falsly I might add, of beating his son. This came from his ex, and some LEO friends she had recently met through her drug-dealer boyfriend. I was present when the "Cowboys" first attempted to bait him into an offence, and after the bugus beating allegedly happened. I was appalled at their complete lack of fairness, independant investigation, and professionalism. I willingly came forward to testify in his behalf, and I'm proud to say, blew the DA's case right out of the water. That jury was hanging on my every word! Had he not had me to testify for him, he was very likely looking at major jail time, all because his druggie ex-wife knew some dirty cops!

This incident shook my faith in the "Local Yokels" here in my 'burb, and I hope my complaints to the administration of the PD did some good.

I think the fact that this is happening more and more is the problem.

Cheese Man :(

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" IF YOU CAN'T HIT IT WITH SIX SHOTS, USE A CLUB!"
 
PumpBlast:

1: Why don't I join up and set an example?
I couldn't enforce many laws that I'd sworn to enforce with a clear conscience. (Same reason I couldn't be an FFL-- couldn't slide one of those forms across the counter at someone.)

2: "...I was breaking the law. ...No ticket."
That's not cool either. If my violation is not serious enough to ticket then don't pull me over in the first place, ask a bunch a snoopy questions, waste my time, check "my papers" (as you put it).
The fact that you stroke his ego, call him "sir", or he likes your necktie, or thinks you're cute, and he "Lets you go with a warning this time". Oh! Thank you MrOfficerSir! You're so great! Let me introduce you to my sister!
Then he tickets the next guy for the same violation because HE has the wrong bumper sticker.

3: "...cruise around ...drugs... prostitution.. chances are you'll get pulled over."
Why? Where is probable cause to detain me simply because of the time of day, geographical location, etc.? Did you know that I can have someone with me that I KNOW is carrying drugs and even THAT does not provide PC to detain/search ME?

4: An episode of COPS!!??
You're kidding right? What. Are you trying to win this debate for me?

5: "..lowlife ..trashy..waste of oxygen."
Needanak addressed this one pretty well. That waste of oxygen is someone's dad, son, whatever. He needs as much respect as you. Constitutional protections aren't in place for popular people. Remember: You, as a gun enthusiast, are considered by many a lowlife waste of oxygen.

6: ".. sometimes a little sacrifice ...is necessary to achieve a larger goal."
Where have I heard that one before?

7: ACLU
Nobody really (or always) likes the ACLU-- and that is what makes them worth keeping around. In fact, they are Law Enforcement Officers of a sort when you think about it.



[This message has been edited by Jordan (edited February 11, 2000).]
 
Branspop, I am familiar with the aforesaid concept. it is probably effective to a certain extent, but it is wrong. effectiveness does not equal right; otherwise we would use the Soviet model of law enforcement. speeding *can* be a safety problem, so why is it treated like a random tax? funny how many speeding tickets are generated by oddly-placed or hidden speed limit signs. there's one spot about 30 miles from me where the speed limit goes from 55 to 35 to 25 in 100 yards, in a rural area. the local SD keeps a cruiser with a radar gun parked behind a church outbuilding essentially 12 hours/day. if legislators would eliminate the revenue aspect from law enforcement (how about making tickets and fines payable only to IRS-registered charities?), I believe the LE administrations would put more effort on public safety.

as for the hypothetical Wamboobie problem, if the problem is occurring withing U.S. territory then all LE activities must be constrained by Constitutional protections.

"Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. "

this applies to blue-eyed WASPs in upscale neighborhoods, Hispanics in South Central, and blacks in rural Mississippi. it is a matter of law, and we are nation of law, not of pragmatism.

and I *am* trying to do something about it; I voice my opinions to my elected representatives. since police organizations aren't cleaning their own house, it unfortunately gets resolved at the political and tort level.
 
Come on guy's, we just love these controversial threads don't we?! Here's my 2 cents:
I've seen both sides to the LE issues. I've seen cops that I litterally couldn't be around for more than a few minutes, and I've seen cops who are not just a credit to themselves, but to the proffession itself. There was a Ranger/police officer who I thought was/is the greatest LEO of all time. He used the minimum approach to enforcement, and it worked. Never wrote a ticket, just could make you feel bad for bad behavior. He wasn't in it for power, or authority, he just wanted to promote public safety. That's what it's all about. Encourage public safety.
We can go on and on about those "dirty cops", and indeed I could tell you some pretty sad tales of LEO's gone stupid, but I'll share with you some of the other side I've seen:
Cops sitting at some little old lady's house trying to comfort her as the morgue people were leaving with the corpse of her husband. Cops out in the rain, helping some frightened teenage girl get her car out of a ditch, or driving an angry bull back into his side of the fence. Or what about telling some kid's parents out of genuine concern, that the kid's been hanging out with the wrong crowd. I know cops who risk their lives to do stupid things like rescue some widows cat, or spend hours at animal control trying to find some kid's lost dog. What about comforting a rape victim? Have you ever watched someone go through a heroin withdrawal? What about those grisly scenes of a suicide or unattended death that is weeks old in the hot and humid summers?
There are tens of thousands of cops who do a job that requires them to be all things to all people. Nobody is ever happy with them. I for one am grateful to the good cops who do what they do. Again I'm talking county here. I'm the most anti federal police guy around on this board.
Instead of bitching about the cops, let's do a small thing to make their job just a bit easier: find out if they have to make a ticket quota from the higher ups, and petition your city council or county commissioners to stop this practice. Most cops will agree that this is a less than pleasant policy. Do somthing positive. Offer a cop some coffee sometime. Do somthing to help the situation. Along the way, you'll find a bunch of decent, good men and women, and you can then have an ear for your concerns and ideas.
 
Wow, interesting thread.

I've seen this from both sides.

I have a few LEO's that I consider friends. I know a few that I will forever hold in contempt.

I'll forever like the officer who responded when the restaurant I worked for had been robbed; he remarked that he'd wished I had my firearm with me that night and had shot the ****ers - a firm believer in the good effects of CCW (BTW, do a search here for that thread, a great reason why gun control doesn't work, and CCW restrictions do no good).

I'll always be a bit pissed at the two officers who slammed me against the wall, handcuffed me and emptied my pockets and threatened my girlfriend when they responded to a "domestic disturbance" call 45 minutes after my girlfriend and I had made up. I was nothing but polite to them, was clean, well dressed, and courteous, yet my having a CCW apparrently wasn't a good enough reason for them when I answered the locked outer door to my apartment complex with my USP in my IWB holster. I guess home invasion must only happen in the movies...

The simple facts of life are that no other profession has such a profound effect on our everyday lives. As such, when you have a bad experience, and you hear of bad experiences of others, it doesn't build up a great amount of trust. That makes it that much harder for the majority who do the right thing, sorry as that is.

Nobody congratulates you on doing the right thing, you only get noticed when something bad happens. It's life.

I lay the responsibility for my speeding tickets squarely on my shoulders. I was breaking the law after all. The times I've gotten off with a warning, I feel lucky. Being polite probably helped. Having cute dogs in the car and a very innocent looking girlfriend probably helped more (weird how that happens - one dog even bit an officer one time, but we still didn't get a ticket).

Then again, I've been pulled over for having out of state plates ("You were going 72, but I clocked you at 65 - I'm going to write the ticket at 72. When did you move here?"). It's the bad experiences we remember.

I don't hold it against all LEO's, but you better believe that if I have to run into one when he / she is acting in their official capacity, I go out of my way not to piss them off. Why give someone a reason, right?

The responsibility lies on everyone's shoulders. It takes two parties to create the "Us vs. Them" attitude, right? Our distrust, their distrust, media sensationalism, and a few bad apples make everything worse than it needs to be.

Spark
 
Jim, I definitly agree with the crew cut "wanna be in the corp types" see them a lot out here in so cal, have also seen a number of older police and found them very much laid back. Once in HS we were drinking in a car in a parking lot of a junior high when an older cop pulled up and asked if we were drinking we lied and said we were not. He checked the car and found numerous beer and a 1.75litre jug of rum. He dumped it out and told us to drive right home. I was only one not drinking so he told me to drive. Very cool guy.

Been pulled numerous times for registration violations (long story- 454, holly carb, no smog devices and hooker headers, have to pay off a smog station for it illegally, feel the same way as my guns. The guvmint wants to ban old cars and use smog to do it)

Anyway the cops have been very cool about it 85% of the time.

Questioned a few times for shooting in a non shooting zone (long stories also) pretty good except for attitude of cop up near big bear (not my fault they woke up one who was sick and could not find us for an hour, you know how those mountains echo :)) He mouthed off so he got it right back. He didnt seem to like anyone doing it to him.

Overall dont have problems with them or all the family members who are cops that I am related to.

Will only have major problems with the ones who enforce a full gun ban out here in Kali that will be here sometime in the future. I gotta get out of here.
 
Being an observer like me, I always encounter such + and - comments as to LE's character.

I have tried to avoid to give comments but we cannot avoid it as a matter of voicing our opinion and it was also discussed by the poster.

If you asked me, I have so many LEO's friend but I don't trust majority of LEO's. If I am in trouble I don't ask a LEO's help but instead made/file a complaint of Information to the fiscal office to someone that made trouble on me.

I just appreciate what the cops good contributions to the public at large, that is to control traffic, go against the criminals (for sincere intention), have patrol duty to sow fear on the part of the criminal due to their visualization on the streets. My country Philippines has a very bad image of the Cops and as of now they are still purging many of the bad elements. Although there are many who are good but majority are undesirable and people trust to them is lost. Any civilian will fear a cop and don't usually complain to them.

What I know so far to maintain raport to the policeman is, be a law abiding citizen, and if you could, build your life belonging to to the middle or upper middle class so that you earn respect from the cops and they don't just dare to create problems on you. If you could make friends always with them, with the power of your money if you have. In that way, you will be away of trouble.

As I said, I respect the good cops, and I am a law abiding citizen but in general I won't trust any cop for particular matters. I only trust my cop's brods in the gun club because we are bound by the Gun Club motto that is "In Brotherhood We Trust".

Thank you,




[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited February 12, 2000).]
 
Ivanhoe - How is the broken windows theory not right? Sure it is not the only answer, but it is somewhat correct. Further if your fellow citizens have a problem with some aspect of your behavior (for example: Speeding) they shouldn't the LEO's who are hired by the public enforce it?

As for the revenue generating thing, that is a lame argument to excuse bad behavior. Some places may set up speed traps and such, but that is an issue that needs to be addressed by the courts or the legislature. It has in the past. My dept doesn't benefit from the fines from speeding citation. They go to the state where portions are given to different projects. Speeding IS dangerous. Work a few accidents and you will see that. I have the benefit of having worked accidents from both a civilian and LEO perspective to know this.

[This message has been edited by Branspop (edited February 12, 2000).]
 
Jordan,

For your point #3, you should consider reading the US Supreme Court decision Terry v. Ohio. Reasonalbe articuable suspicion is all that is needed to investigate you for a crime, not probable cause. Time of day, aquantances, mannerisms, location, crime rate, activities and a host of other factors can be weighed into the equasion. An officer may also "pat you down" for his safety, but may not enter into you pockets without further reason. For instance is he pats you down for weapons and feels what is obviously a crack pipe he may retrieve it.

Probable cause is required for an arrest or other placing of charges.

The point the 4th amendment, under this deccision, is trying to make is that you are protected from "unreasonable" searches and seizures. The court has to decide what is reasonable.

[This message has been edited by Branspop (edited February 12, 2000).]
 
I realize that I am the one that reopened this thread and, as stated above, did some soul searching before doing so.
There have been some good points made on both sides of the issue. There have been some not so well thought out remarks made as well. However over all I don't feel that any more can be gained from continuing the thread. This is one case that I wish the original topic starter could close a thread.
My apologies to anyone whom I have offended, not because of my point of view but because of any (unintended) offense in the way I presented it.

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Gunslinger

We live in a time in which attitudes and deeds once respected as courageous and honorable are now scorned as being antiquated and subversive.



[This message has been edited by Gunslinger (edited February 12, 2000).]
 
I very narrowly missed becoming a police officer at 21 (I moved out of state a week or two before they called for a 2nd interview). In retrospect, I am happy I did not become one, despite the fact that the pay would have been considerably better than what I lived on for the next few years. I say that because I now realize there are many laws that I could not, in good conscience, enforce. If I had already enforced those laws before realizing how wrong they were, I would have a hard time looking at myself in the mirror.

There are examples of good, mediocre, and bad in virtually every group. I have met a few miserable examples of LEO. I have met police officers that I would have been willing to fight, bleed, and maybe die beside- and have known that to be the case with several within a minute of meeting them. The problem may partially be that law enforcement is one area that really allows a person to shine or degrade himself. There may be less of an opportunity to be such a savior or monster while selling shoes.
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I find this statement: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>a lot of the time it's piece lowlife crminal with no license, no insurance, more than likely warrants for their arrest. Just watch an episode or two of COPS. The people the police
contact trashy lowlifes. They are for the most part a waste of oxygen. Sometimes a little sacrifice on our part is necessary to acheive a larger goal.[/quote]

to be perhaps the most frightening thing I've read on this board. True, being a police officer is not always easy. Many go way past the call of duty routinely, and those gallant men and women have my hearfelt thanks; but to suggest wholesale abrogation of our Constitutional rights makes me see red, sir. Even more frightening than one ill-considered stance from a rightful ally, is the fact that many Americans agree with you. I think the quote goes something like: Those who are willing to trade freedom for security deserve neither.

[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited February 12, 2000).]
 
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