Why do people swear by 1911's?

11.25mm is the metric designation for the .45ACP round. I think its their measurement of the bore diameter, not the groove, but I know its their name for the .45acp. The Norwegians also call it the 11.25mm.

Sistema Colts are, if I remember right, license built copies, and parts should interchange (with some fitting, probably)

why do people swear by the 1911?

Some of us remember the days before JHP ammo was common. We remember the days when the first 9mm JHPs were touted as the new best thing. After 30 some years, it appears they may have figured it out, but the .45 bias is strong.

Probably because while its effectiveness has been blown out of reality (and what isn't these days??) it is based on solid historical performance.

Like wise, the 1911(A1)'s reputation for always working. Nothing does all the time, but the 1911 worked BETTER than its competition, foreign and domestic.

Personally, I think the 1911A1 is the best blend of power, controllability, accuracy and ergonomics devised for a combat handgun. No design rivaled it, let alone exceeded it in any way for over half a century. Today we have more modern designs that perform better for some people or are more pleasing to some people, but the 1911 not only still holds up, its made today by almost everyone, so that right there should tell you something. Colt, Sig, S&W, Ruger, and many others make a gun that is a 1911 "type" either a true reproduction of the original or their "improved" versions.

I was Army trained as a Small Arms Repairman, when the 1911A1 was still our service pistol. While I think those who (jokingly) refer to the gun's design as coming down from on high are going a bit too far, there's no denying it was a work of design genius.

One of the things I always felt was pure genius was the fact that the original GI design guns can be detail stripped with one "tool", and that tool can be a rifle cartridge, a pen, a bootlace, a toothpick, a twig or almost anything with a point on it that can push in the firing pin. The rest of the pistol can be disassembled using only the fingers and the parts of the gun itself.
 
sistem colt

They are a cool gun with a lot of history, that's why.

Hey the Sistema Colt's say 11.25mm on them. Does anyone know for sure that they shoot .45 auto ammo? I grew up being told only put exactly what is stamped on the gun in it for ammunition so I'm just looking for confirmation.
 
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Think about the other semi autos that are no longer considered for production, like the P-08 or the P-38

I haven't looked recently if DWM is still in business, but Walther certainly is still manufacturing fine pistols. I for one am very happy Walther updates their designs after a decade or two.
 
I just looked up .45 conversion to MM it came out to 11.4, I don't know if that helps you or not. Take the barrel out of the gun and drop a round into the chamber. It should just plop in there. I think 44 AMP is probably correct. But if you really want to know send the gun to Demolition Ranch on You Tube, Mat will find out for sure. Not saying what condition your gun will be in when you get it back but it should make a great video.
 
44 AMP is correct on this one. :rolleyes:

The reason a straight math metric to English conversion doesn't work out perfectly is simply because cartridge names are not precise descriptors of the size of the round. They are CLOSE, but not exact. The number used will have some kind of correlation, it MAY be the actual bore, or groove diameter, or it may not be.

Literally, only the first digit in a cartridge name is expected to be accurate. Usually the first two are, but not necessarily. Sometimes all 3 are, if 3 are used, but again, not necessarily.

For some examples,
.22 Hornet, .218 Bee, .219 Zipper, .220 Swift, .221 Fireball, .222 Remington, .223 Remington (5.56mm), .224 Weatherby, .225 Winchester, and .22-250 all shoot the same .224" diameter bullets.

7.62mm = .3" or if you prefer, .300" Not .308", and not .311-.312" which is the diameter of 7.62mm bullets.

the .32 ACP which is known in Europe as 7.65mm uses .311" bullets but the math conversion is 7.65mm = .304"

Nearly all our ".38" caliber pistol rounds are ".35s" using bullets from .355" to .358" diameter

Our .44s use bullets that are .429"

In the case of the pistol rounds, it's history. Many were originally loaded with heel type bullets (the kind still used in the .22 LR) where the full bullet diameter is the same as the outside of the case. When the change was made to inside lubricated bullets (our modern standard) the bullet diameter was reduced to fit inside the case, but the original name was kept.

Cartridges made later, that never had heel type bullets, kept to the same general standard, though there are numerous exceptions.

Literally, who ever makes a cartridge gets to name it, and what every they choose is the name. It will have some kind of relationship to the cartridge size, but other than that, the field is wide open. :D
 
knutsoch said:
Hey the Sistema Colt's say 11.25mm on them. Does anyone know for sure that they shoot .45 auto ammo? I grew up being told only put exactly what is stamped on the gun in it for ammunition so I'm just looking for confirmation.
Confirmation confirmed. I own a "Sistema Colt" (more on that below), and it shoots .45 ACP.

Now ... about that "Sistema Colt" thing. There ain't no such critter.

https://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?110078-Colt-Sistema-slide-question

M1911.org said:
Properly, the Sistemas are not "Sistemas," either. That's part of the model name. The maker was found on the left side of the slide: D.G.F.M. - (F.M.A.P)
Direccion General de Fabricaciones Militares (Fabric Militar de Armas Portatiles). Roughly translated, this means "General Directorate for Military Fabrications (Military Factory for Portable [Small] Arms)."

The right side rollmark should be read and interpreted as a complete statement, not pulling "Colt" out of it to mean something other than intended. "Sistema" is the Spanish word for "system." The right side rollmark is "SIST. COLT CAL. 11.25mm MOD. 1927". That translates to "System of Caliber Colt .45, Model of 1927." It's the equivalent of an American-made 1911 (or any pistol) saying ".45 ACP" or ".45 Auto" on the slide.

To elaborate a bit on what 44 AMP posted about caliber designations, he is correct that nomenclature is somewhat (??) arbitrary. It may refer (closely, or not so closely) to the bore diameter, the groove diameter, or the case diameter. He gave several examples. Another is .44 Colt / .45 Colt.

Most of us know that the 1873 Colt SAA was originally chambered for .45 Colt. Before 1873, though, as soon as S&W's patent on metallic cartridges and bored-through cylinders expired, Colt wanted/needed to jump on the band wagon. Colt had a lot of open-top, percussion cap revolvers in the factory. A couple of their employees came up with a conversion to allow them to fire metallic cartridges by boring out the back of the cylinder to the same diameter as the chamber for the .44 caliber balls (which were actually .45x" in diameter because .44" was the bore diameter, not the groove diameter), and adding a bit of hardware at the back of the cylinder. (You can Google Richards-Mason Conversion if you want more info on that.)

The black powder .44 caliber revolvers fired lead balls of .45x diameter. The 1873 SAA fires lead bullets of .45x" diameter. This is why you can buy conversion kits to allow a .44 caliber cap-and-ball revolver to fire .45 Colt (or the shorter .45 Schofield) cartridge ammo. The barrels are the same, or so nearly so that it doesn't matter.

Those early Richards-Mason conversions fired a .44 Colt cartridge that had a heeled bullet. The cylinders were bored straight through, so the case and the bullet had the same diameter. Today, if you buy an Italian reproduction of a Richards-Mason conversion 1872 Colt, it will be chambered in what is today called .44 Colt, but it will fire modern ammo with a bullet that's .429" in diameter. This creates a conundrum for reloaders because, if you have an original Richards-Mason conversion, or a true copy of one, you need something like the original ammo. Some suppliers now distinguish between ".44 Colt" and ".44 Colt Original."

All of which is an extremely long-winded way or trying to explain why the Argenianian 11.25mm 1911s fire .45 Colt ammunition just fine.
 
They are available here in the UK and i owned one in the past i liked it as a historic pistol, but its only really popular in America. If i was looking something for CC it would be way down the list.
 
P5 Guy

Quote: Walther certainly is still manufacturing fine pistols. I for one am very happy Walther updates their designs after a decade or two.
Your missing the point, the 1911 has been in constant production for over 100 years with very few changes. Both the P-08 and the P-38 have not come anywhere close to this. Walther may well have used some of the ideas taken from the P-38 and incorporated it into their new designs but they don't produce a true P-38 as far as I can tell. Admittedly I am not really familiar with their full product line but it can't compare with the 1911's record. It is by far the standard in which all others are measured, and the simple fact that everyone out there makes a 1911 in some form or another speaks for itself. Perhaps if Walther based their product on a 1911 it wouldn't need to change every few decades.
 
+1

Yes, ..........the makers, Walther is still in business, as is Savage, as is Mauser, and Colt. But the semi auto pistols that were contemporaries with the 1911 are long out of production, only the 1911 remains.
 
People like different things, maybe they have a fondness for the 1911 in general. The trigger is usually good, moreover it's very easy to shoot a 1911 well so it doesn't take much practice to shoot well with it. Many like the grip angle of the gun and others like guns that have a physical safety they can manipulate.

I like the 1911 and have owned dozens, but to me they're just nice guns that I don't really have a good use for, just a range gun. It's a paradox, they don't compare real favorably with more modern semi autos in terms of weight and capacity and overall ease of use/maintenance, but then again, there's nothing quite like a 1911.
 
It's a paradox, they don't compare real favorably with more modern semi autos in terms of weight and capacity and overall ease of use/maintenance, but then again, there's nothing quite like a 1911.

I agree there are more modern designs that are more advanced in terms of capacity and lighter weight, (and size) than the original Government model.

Now, consider this, the 1911/1911A1 Government Model was an established military arm before the designers of our most modern semi auto pistols were even born.

They've been able to study the 1911 in war and peace, its flaws and its strengths for their entire lives. And look what they have managed to make, some gun that are in some ways slightly better, and some that aren't. Think about that.

I'm not an exclusive "originalist" / purist. I put rubber grips on SA revolvers. I have been known to put a telescopic sight on a lever action rifle. Because, for me, doing so makes them work better in my hands. Horrifies some people, but I don't care.

I don't do much, if anything to a Government model, other than sights better than the original GI ones. I don't find it to need anything else.
All of the "race gun" features are pretty much wasted on my, though I have tried most of them, just to be sure. I don't need extended controls, or a "whale tail" grip safety. I must be the exception, as I cannot ever recall being "bitten" by a Govt model, with stock everything, unless I had my hand in the wrong place, and that would have been MY fault, not the gun design.

When one of the more modern designs, be it SIG or GLock or S&W or something else has over a CENTURY of constant production and use, it might then be on a par with where the 1911 is TODAY, and while I personally won't be around to see it, I think that its quite likely that if/when that "modern" design reaches the century mark, it will still be facing the 1911 design going into its 3rd century....

OF course, if we can create working/workable ray guns, blasters, phasers or any of the rest of scifi arms, the point may be moot. Until then, and I think for some time after, the 1911 design will still be chosen by a lot of folks.
 
The 1911 is also possibly the most versatile pistol design in the history of firearms. Think of how many calibers it has been offered in:

  • .45 ACP
  • 9mm Parabellum
  • .380 ACP
  • .38 Special
  • .38 Super
  • .22 LR
  • .22 Magnum
  • .22 TCM
  • 10mm
  • .357 SIG
  • .460 Rowland
  • .455 Webley

That's off the top of my head. I'm sure there have been others. I can't think of any other handgun that even comes close to having been made in so many calibers/chamberings.
 
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knutsoch said:
Hey the Sistema Colt's say 11.25mm on them. Does anyone know for sure that they shoot .45 auto ammo? I grew up being told only put exactly what is stamped on the gun in it for ammunition so I'm just looking for confirmation.

Yes, 11.25x23mm, 11.43x23mm and .45 ACP are the same (described here if you read Spanish).

Or ...

Marcajes_ea.jpg
 
Hitting with a handgun is hard enough under ideal conditions, so why make it any harder than necessary?
If you take into account all of the "1911" variations available today, you can find one that does just about whatever you need a handgun to do, while being easier to shoot well than the available alternatives.
 
It is by far the standard in which all others are measured, and the simple fact that everyone out there makes a 1911 in some form or another speaks for itself.

458, Just because a product is copied by others or still being manufactured does not mean it is an up to date product.
What this speaks to is a lot of folks buy an old obsolete pistol out of misplaced nostalgia.
FN/Browning recently came to their senses and stopped making Hi-Power pistols.
What exactly is the 1911's record? Seems to me from a lot of what I have read about 1911s is they often need a great deal of gun-smithing to be reliable.
Walther's new all steel target pistol is something you can check out.
 
I think it has been over stated, but i’ll pile on.

Speed - Back before I could put a gun in your right hand and enough cash in your left to overcome the guns short comings, almost every pro shooter used a 1911 and then a 2011. This is because the gun has good ergonomics and the best trigger when tuned to you.

Accuracy- Bullseye has never been about the money, but 1911’s. Even though we can machine guns better now and ge good accuracy locking up on the hood, 1911’s still lock up tighter when fit right. Plus more people know how to fit them.

Accuracy at speed - The really do point very well. Few new dangled guns, can be fired as the sights are coming into view and make a zone hits. I suppose this is personal, but it has proven personally good for many folks.

Holster selection - Lots of new fangled guns with 1 holster. Everybody makes a 1911 holster.
 
P5 Guy said:
What this speaks to is a lot of folks buy an old obsolete pistol out of misplaced nostalgia.
Old does not necessarily equate to obsolete.

Merriam-Webster Online said:
Definition of obsolete

a : no longer in use or no longer useful an obsolete word
b : of a kind or style no longer current : old-fashioned an obsolete technology farming methods that are now obsolete
The 1911 is still widely used (even by certain elements of U.S. armed forces), so (a) doesn't apply. And, with myriad manufacturers churning out 1911s on modern CNC machining centers and people buying hundreds or thousands of new 1911s every day (a few years ago Kimber alone sold 40,000 1911s in one year) it's clear that (b) also doesn't apply. The 1911 design is obviously old (age does that) but it's hardly obsolete.

I don't choose to carry 1911s out of nostalgia. I choose to carry a 1911 because I shoot it well, I understand it, and I can rely on it.

P5 Guy said:
What exactly is the 1911's record? Seems to me from a lot of what I have read about 1911s is they often need a great deal of gun-smithing to be reliable.
Maybe you shouldn't believe everything you read. Some 1911s need tuning up to be reliable. Many (I would like to say "most," but I have no statistics to quantify that) do not. From what I've seen through years of lurking on a couple of 1911-oriented forums is that many 1911s that were reliable when purchased miraculously become unreliable when their owners start throwing aftermarket parts at them to "improve" them. I have bought a couple of such 1911s from consignment sales. Surprise, surprise! When I undid the "improvements" and restored them to original configuration, they somehow became reliable. I don't think that's a coincidence, especially when it has happened more than twice.
 
That's off the top of my head. I'm sure there have been others. I can't think of any other handgun that even comes close to having been made in so many calibers/chamberings.

Better put the T/C Contender on the top of your head for "made in so many calibers/chamberings", as it is significantly more then the dozen you list for the 1911 design.

OK, so its not a repeater, but it IS a handgun. ;)
 
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