Why do people fear the MIM?

One has to ask themselves why is MIM showing up in guns and other products where forged or cast parts were used in the past? It is not the MIM itself that is the issue it is the mentality that drives a company to use MIM. It is not about improving the product. It is not about making it better. It it about making it cheaper to produce with a piece of material that is "good enough" to get the job done. With MIM you can take what used to be a complicated hand assembled/fitted part which might have had multiple pieces and components and simplify it into a single molded part that is good enough to get the job done but that creates a slippery slope.

More and more gun manufacturers are realizing that the avg gun simply do not get shot that often. IMHO the avg pistol sold in this country gets fired less than 1000 time in its lifetime. :eek: I know people are going to jump all over this and say I put 1000 rounds down range just last week..... yada yada yada but I will remind people that we are the major minority when it comes to gun ownership.

Most people buy a gun shoot it when new throw it in a drawer next to the bed and call it a day. They might take it out a few times a year shoot a few rounds and then back in the draw it goes.

Knowing this manufactures have adopted a "pinto principle" mind set. Build it good enough for the vast majority of buyers those who exceed the avg usage and experience breakage fix those under warranty. These will be few and far between this all equals increases to the bottom line. Even if you know there is a potential failure down the road it is easier to keep producing the product as is and deal with the warranty claims if and when they come up. Guns manufacturers are no different than auto makers or any other manufacturer for that matter who have been doing this forever.

The manufacturer uses MIM because they reduce production cost over the long run which may or may not be passed on to the consumer. MIM done will get the job done but the issue is that every company is trying to squeeze as many pennies out of every unit the sell. This causes them to cut costs which means that more and more MIM is used and overtime cheapened to the brink of failure or in some cases developed from jump to barely get the job done ="pinto principle".

Remember MIM was not introduced to make the pistol better it was introduced to make it cheaper to manufacture. It is a perfect example of what I call the "pinto principle".... Add to that more and more manufacturers are outsourcing their MIM parts to the lowest bidder. So you have compounding factor in the race to the bottom.

Again it is not that MIM cannot produce a good part. It is not that MIM can't be used in guns and aerospace etc... it is that the mentality that is driving the use of MIM is a race to the bottom in terms of cost which in the end can only bring down quality. The same can happen to forged and cast parts as well but MIM seems to take the brunt of the criticism in the gun world.

If I have the choice between MIM and forged steel I will pay a little more and go with the forged part but I understand not everyone else would agree. I personally wish it was not used but I understand why it is. The avg consumer keeps demanding more for less and MIM is one of the ways the gun makers achieve this. So in a sense we have done it to ourselves. End of soap box rant!!!

;)
 
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And what if MIM is not just "good enough" but better than forged steel? And is "forged steel" always forged?

That S&W hammer I mentioned above has not been forged for decades; they were punched out of sheet steel. And what makes you think MIM parts won't hold up as well or better than forged or stamped parts? The old hammers were soft steel, case hardened against wear. The MIM parts are hard all the way through and extremely tough. The case hardened parts did sometimes wear enough to expose the soft inner core; that won't happen with MIM; which is better?

And anyway, what is so bad about "good enough", and how do you define that term? If I expect a car to go 100k miles without a major repair and it goes 100k, is that "good enough"? If it goes 200k, or 500k, is that "good enough"? Nothing lasts forever; everything mechanical will wear out eventtually, no matter who made it, how it was made or what it was made from. If it meets all reasonable expectations of the user, is that "good enough"? Or does a gun, because it is a gun, have to meet some arbitrary idea of absolute perfection before it is "good enough"?

Jim
 
If it meets all reasonable expectations of the user, is that "good enough"? Or does a gun, because it is a gun, have to meet some arbitrary idea of absolute perfection before it is "good enough"?

This is brilliant. MIM to a bunch of self taught engineers is like introducing a bic lighter to the cave man. Scary at first but once you understand it, its quit useful as opposed to rubbing two sticks together.
MIM has been perfected to the point it is equal and in some aplication superior to a forged part. S&W at least thinks so.
 
That S&W hammer I mentioned above has not been forged for decades; they were punched out of sheet steel. And what makes you think MIM parts won't hold up as well or better than forged or stamped parts? The old hammers were soft steel, case hardened against wear. The MIM parts are hard all the way through and extremely tough. The case hardened parts did sometimes wear enough to expose the soft inner core; that won't happen with MIM; which is better?

It is a matter of opinion. MIM with defects will crack immediately. When everything is done right MIM can and does work. You are assuming that it is done right everytime or at least more often then not. In the case of S&W that might be the case but for every example of where it works you can show and example where the part was cheapened to the point of failure.

Look at the front sights on the Ruger 1911. Right out of the box they were problematic. Sheared right off from shooting at very low round counts.

Again not saying MIM cannot work just like a do not assume it will always fail I think you are giving way too much in the opposite direction believing that they will always work or be better. Also just because they work now does not mean S&W or their suppliers down the road will not change the mix to save a penny and introduce failure.

And anyway, what is so bad about "good enough", and how do you define that term? If I expect a car to go 100k miles without a major repair and it goes 100k, is that "good enough"? If it goes 200k, or 500k, is that "good enough"? Nothing lasts forever; everything mechanical will wear out eventtually, no matter who made it, how it was made or what it was made from. If it meets all reasonable expectations of the user, is that "good enough"? Or does a gun, because it is a gun, have to meet some arbitrary idea of absolute perfection before it is "good enough"?

This speaks directly to my point. The number of rounds or miles is often dictated by the consumers needs and I believe that the gun manufacturers in over the last 5 years which was a time of tremendous growth realize that the "good enough" expectation of the masses is really low because they simply are not used that much.

In the end we have enough guns in the market place that we can each choose to purchase what we feel is best. You like and accept MIM I do not, when I can avoid it, and IMHO both stances are reasonable and OK.
 
MIM has been perfected to the point it is equal and in some aplication superior to a forged part. S&W at least thinks so.

If that is the case why are older S&W guns more valued than the new? ;)

I mean look at Kimber one of the earliest adopter of MIM. They did a great job initially with the process. They produced great guns early on. As time went on and they grew their business and the moved to a volume model that reduced the quality of these MIM parts to the point of failure. Cohen is now running the same playbook at Sig.

Again I am not against the process of MIM I am against its execution.
 
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We always go through this with new technology. Ruger makes castings .But the new investment castings with modern alloys . Not the old type. I have an impeller from a commercial airliner.It rotates 90,000 RPM .It's stainless steel .That part and Rugers parts are condemned by those who can't accept new technology.Seems Ruger is doing OK despite those people !!:rolleyes:
Ruger's cost savings are in great part due to starting with a clean slate ,design parts with casting in mind. They could not be successful casting a previously machined part.

feets, I come from the earlier powder metal times .When you sit down and work out design with the new tech it's fun and challenging. Some ideas were terrible but some brilliant .helicopter bearing retainers from PM . Those held a bit of oil , enough to let a shot out oil line not be a problem .The bit of oil permitted the chopper to land safely !
 
Ruger is doing OK despite those people !!

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/sturm-ruger-posts-sharp-decline-in-revenue-2014-10-29

Firearms maker Sturm Ruger & Co. RGR, -1.82% reported another quarter of lower demand, posting a 76% decrease in its third-quarter profit and a 42% drop in revenue.

The company said a decline in overall industry demand and high inventory levels at retail led to aggressive discounting by competitors, which it didn't match, likely resulting in lost market share.

That does not sound like OK this does not look like OK to me..... LOL I have never seen a true Novak sight do that but then again a true Novak Sight is a premium product. The Novak designed Ruger sight is not. Pinto principle in full effect!

broken_sight.jpg


Again nothing wrong with the MIM process in and of itself. It is it application and the execution of the product.
 
And there's never been a bad forged part?
Showing an example of one bad part - regardless of how it was made - proves nothing.

I don't believe anyone was claiming that there never been a bad mim part.
 
And there's never been a bad forged part?
Showing an example of one bad part - regardless of how it was made - proves nothing.

I don't believe anyone was claiming that there never been a bad mim part.

No one is claiming that forged does not fail. You are so missing the point. My point is that when you are racing to the bottom you end up with MIM parts that fail almost right out of the box. It is not that the front sights failed here and there people sent their guns back to Ruger they replaced the sight only to have it shear off again.

My post is directly in response to Ruger doing so well with MIM built from the ground up and that their sales are robust.... LOL
 
Why do I get the feeling that no gun made since, say, 1820, would be good enough for some folks? After all, when they stopped using that old reliable flint and steel, things went to heck. :rolleyes:

Jim
 
Why do I get the feeling that no gun made since, say, 1820, would be good enough for some folks? After all, when they stopped using that old reliable flint and steel, things went to heck.

Love it when people say stuff like this because they cannot entertain the idea that others works from a different aesthetic.

Instead on continuing a discussion it is it is easier to hurl backhanded passive aggressive insults. Sad to see such behavior from someone with a staff title. :(

I guess we will just agree to disagree. Luckily I don't buy guns for you and you don't buy them for me..... ;)
 
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I don't fear MIM - I simply don't like MIM.

As long as I'm spending my money on something, I'll try to get something I want - unless I'm forced to take what I have to because what I want is no longer a viable choice.

+1 "fear" is the wrong word IMHO.
 
WVsig, you're no better than the mass media. Picking and choosing random bits to fit your agenda is not a convincing argument.

All gun makers took a hit recently. The gun rush ended. They had ramped up production to meet higher demands. When that stopped, the distributors were flush with inventory. Nobody was buying. That meant nobody was selling.
Other mfgs dropped their prices to squeeze out any sale they could. That was a big profit incentive for wholesalers who were not otherwise buying. Ruger did not cut their prices. The distributors did not have the extra incentive to buy their guns. The retailers did not get cheap Rugers from the distributors so they bought the other discounted brands instead. Buyers saw other popular brands on sale and went for them instead of the Rugers.

That is simple marketing and has nothing to do with MIM parts. As such, it bears zero relevance to this discussion.

Yes, Ruger is still doing well. They just didn't give away their guns like the other guys did.
 
I love the fact that when someone's opinion agrees with your mindset you do not accuse them of cherry picking examples but when someone disagrees with your way of think that is exact what you do. What is the difference between me sighting Kimber's or Ruger's MIM issues vs JAmes K siting S&W's successes?

One has to ask why you bothered opening up this discussion if you did not want to have a discussion. Did you only want people who agreed with you 100% to post in this thread or did you want an open and honest discussion?

I do not understand why you feel the need to attack me instead of my words directly. If I have made such a poor argument then attack my words not me. Logically demonstrate the flaws in my logic. I am not the mass media in any way shape or form. What I am is simply someone who holds a different opinion then you do. Attacking the man does not prove your argument.

Yes Ruger's sales are down just like everyone else's but the shine certainly has come off their MIM filled 1911. Which I believe is related to the topic at hand. Time will tell how well Ruger is doing. We will see if they have the ability to adjust to the new market they are faced with.

I personally believe that part of the Ruger slow down is the fact that they have not introduced a pistol in the last 5 years that has not had an outright recall or significant teething issue in the first year of production. In general I think Ruger is a good company that produces budget guns using innovative manufacturing techniques but they are what they are. A mass market middle of the road product. YMMV

The funny part is I own guns with MIM. I don't "fear" it as your thread title implies. I prefer not to have it in my guns if I have a choice. I will pay more if I think I can avoid it a get a better product. Nothing wrong with that just like there is nothing wrong with embracing new technology and new manufacturing techniques. Your assumptions that people who don't like MIM don't embrace new ways to produce products is simply misplaced and incorrect.

For example I have been driving a car with an Aluminum frame for over 10 years. It was one of the first production cars to adopt aerospace quality aluminum in a car frame outside of the racing world. Just because people don't like what gun manufacturers are doing with MIM does not mean they are not into innovation. :eek:

In the end it seems like you simply want people to agree with you vs having an actual discussion. I enjoyed the discussion but I think it has run its course.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle
 
It sounds very mush like it is you who feel that you are the only one allowed to have an opinion and you denounce as "passive aggressive" (my, grandpa, what big words you have!) anyone who dares to disagree or try to be reasonable.

If you feel you are above any interest in a "mass market middle of the road product", that is fine. There are those who see a gun as a weapon or a tool, and those who see fine guns as works of art. I have nothing against the latter view, but unlike you, I cannot afford many of them, nor can I afford custom sports cars.

Jim
 
Because I have experience in the molding industry,I can make a pretty good guess about that 1911 sight.Disclaimer,I know plastic molding,not MIM.

I assume MIM is a powdered metal/binder process,with post processing to cook the part to desired properties.

At least with plastic,heat goes into the plastic to make it moldable.Its a lot of heat,the latent heat of melting comes into play.

The only way the heat leaves the part is by transferring to the mold.

So,the outer skin of the part is solid while the core of the part is molten.

This is where the principle of uniform wall sections for molded parts becomes critical.

A thicker cross section will retain heat longer.The "T" section of the blade joining the dovetail base is a thicker section.It will cool last.

Now,during all this cooling,shrink is occurring.the outer,cooled,solid surfaces are rigid,and no longer shrinking.All of the shrink is pulled from the last molten material.Its the only place that can yield.The result is sink,or porosity,or voids,and lots of stress.

OK,how much of this applies to MIM?I do not know.But hopefully it illustrates how a part must be designed for the process.

On a side track,I think it was in Hatcher's Notebook::I recall reading the root cause of some of the brittle Springfield or Enfield receivers.
Back then,the heat treaters experienced eyeball was the guage to know when steel was at proper temp for the quench.

A change in mgt resulted in an order to wash the old dingy windows.The increase in ambient light de-calibrated the precision eyeballs,and as a result thesteel was overheated,losing properties.

I believe there is something about the older formula chlorinated hydrocarbon tappling fluids,like Rapid Tap,that can effect some stainless steels,particularly those bearing sulphur for machinability.I do not know,I have not researched it,but I suspect a problem like Redhawk barrels falling off might be traced back to something like that.
Schuemann barrels recommends against Carb cleaner,brake cleaner,etc in its bbls for that reason.

Point is this,I disagree with the sinister claims that the whole point is cheapening the product for more profit.
Every endeavor into new territory includes risk.NASA had a few problems,Astronauts died.The space shuttles blew up.This new commercial rocket blew up.
Knowledge comes tough sometimes.New products,processes have bugs.
Unfortunately,among us gun folks,we hold our perceptions for decades.
I still hear as doctrine perceptions formed in the 70's about products.
Heck,folks still carry their 1965 experiences with the M-16.
When we sent early B-17's to the Brits,they called them "widowmakers" and hated them.
Deficiencies get overcome.Holding on to old perceptions simply makes you wrong,in many cases.Keep the mind open to what is true today.
And,remember this:Every time taxes go up,fees go up,energy goes up,price of material goes up,benefits like wages,insurance,workmans comp,and pensions go up,and litigation adds millions to costs,and industry has to make choices.

If your rifle stock requires fine old growth walnut,you must charge a lot of money or close the doors.

Any manufacturer today is up against a consumer who just won't pay another $100,competition,and rising costs.Finding 30 cents here,14 cents there keeps the doors open,and guns under glass for us to buy.

I like old guns...but if you want to buy a new Hepburn or Sharps,or a side by side double...you better have a fat wallet.

How has Winchester done?

And how successful is the Philipine 1911 industry?I bet they are making more money than Colt is on 1911's.The customer defines quality.and that comes down to how the customer feels after they spend the dollar.

FWIW,some of the finest cutlery and many replaceable carbide/ceramic cutter inserts are made via powdered metal processes.Theprocess makes hardness and wear resistant properties possible.
 
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Siggy, you're taking things out of context again.

I don't mind an open discussion. It would be great if we could have one that stuck to the MIM topic.

All I did was point out that you brought in Ruger's refusal to discount their guns as a point of failing business. That has nothing to do with MIM parts.

While I have been around the Ruger 1911 I have not seen a failure first hand.

You see, I've got my own little machine shop. I'm pretty good with metals and understand a bit more than most. I also do a bit of gunsmithing.

I got a chuckle out of your quote: It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle

You are the one blasting me and getting fussy. My mind is still open for discussion.
 
James, the 2000 Mercedes CL500 had an aluminum structure. That was 15 years ago and those cars aren't worth much today.

The Franklin used a lot of aluminum back in the 1930s.

The whole "aerospace" bit makes me chuckle. I have bars of "aerospace" aluminum sitting in my shop. It's called 6061 and 7075. You know. The common stuff.
 
But, but, I thought there was military grade aluminum, too? ;)

I guess I'll say it if someone else hasn't; people hate MIM because it's ugly. That's it. They'll hem and haw about durability, accuracy, texture, and wax poetically about (extremely inconsistent) hand fitment in days of yore, but at the end of the day it's only really an issue when people can see it and tell that it's MIM.

TCB
 
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