Why did homeland security buy millions of 135 grain .40?

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briandg said:
I'm going to assume that it was just another corrupt government agency spending millions of tax dollars on the most foolish thing that they could think of.
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Umm... DHS has several law enforcement agencies that issue service weapons chambered in .40 S&W.

Coast Guard (41,800 personnel)
Customs & Border Protection (56,500 personnel)
Immigration & Customs Enforcement (15,000 personnel)
Federal Protective Service (2100 personnel)
Secret Service (4,400 personnel)

Just a quick tally of the numbers totals: 119,800 personnel.

Considering that we must qualify on the practical (50rds) pistol course every six months...

119,800 x 100 = 11,980,000 rounds used annually in training and qualification. Roughly.

And our biggest complaint with weapons training and qualification is that we don't get to shoot as much as we need to in order to remain proficient. So those of us who actually want to go the extra mile train on our own time and our own dime.

Still think it's just another corrupt government agency foolishly spending taxpayer dollars? When you don't know what to say; it is best to remain silent.

Put away the tinfoil hat guy.
 
Put away the tinfoil hat guy.
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Sorry I just watched the movie Signs, and I keep thinking of when they were all wearing the tinfoil hats so the aliens couldn't read their minds! ahah! oh I get it now I think... haha

I'm going to assume that they bought so many rounds because they chose to go with a 40 after extensive testing and now they need lots and lots of ammo to train, qualify, and use for practice? Sarcastic, but just a guess.
 
cannonfire said:
I'm going to assume that they bought so many rounds because they chose to go with a 40 after extensive testing and now they need lots and lots of ammo to train, qualify, and use for practice? Sarcastic, but just a guess.
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I can't speak for the other agencies, but the Coast Guard switched from the Beretta M9 (9mm) to the SigSauer P229DAK (.40 S&W) back in early 2006. That was after a 3 million round 'torture test' of sorts...

My guess is that briandg stumbled on a "story" of a routine bulk purchase... But that's pure speculation.

Just had a thought...

Why did DoD just purchase millions of rounds of 5.56x45mm?!?!?! They must be corrupt!!!

You might scoff at the idea of me relating the two, but I see no difference between the two 'headlines'...
 
green ammo?

Hey, is that training ammo, or duty ammo?

My fed agency has a directive to use "green" ammo for training, which means no lead, which means a lighter .40 (or any other cal) slug when compared to "real" lead slugs.

Conventional lead ammo is still authorized for duty carry, and is typically a 180 gr JHP when in .40 cal.
 
This story is about a year old.

The Border Patrol used to authorize a number of calibers for carry but standardized on the 40S&W in the late 1990s. Following 9-1-1 the BP was consolidated with the Customs Service and 40 became the standard round there. All of the involved agencies have used the 40S&W for years now. Anyone passing familiar with them would know that.

The size of these agencies has continued to expand over the last decade. Clinton, Bush and Obama have all expanded ICE and it's predecessors. So the idea that many, many rounds of .40 S&W have been ordered at once and in advance (saving money by doing that) should come as no surprise.

The Winchester Ranger T line is not a part of the Winchester lead free line of "clean" or "green" ammo. A trip to their web site verifies that.

The only real question is why the 135 gr. In the past most of these agencies have used a heavier round.

Some companies offer a 135 gr. 40 at about 1350 fps from a 4" barrel. Beats the pants off the .357 Sig. I'm not sure the Ranger T is that.

Is interesting how a straight forward story attracts the tin foil hat crowd. I can understand folks not knowing that these agencies have been using the .40 but the Federal Government buying a lot of ammo for law enforcement is not new. It also still buys a lot of 9mm for both law enforcement and the military. This has helped drive up the price of ammo the last few years. That whole "War O Terror" thingy has sure been a nuiscence to us sport shooters ain't it!

tipoc
 
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I'm going to assume that it was just another corrupt government agency spending millions of tax dollars on the most foolish thing that they could think of.
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Run that through your sarcasm filter, and you will realize that I forgot to add the :rolleyes: to it.

That was not a statement of belief.
 
WHY?

The bast place to get an answer to your question is the G.A.O. any ideas posted here would be Speculation at best.:rolleyes:
 
bamaranger said:
Hey, is that training ammo, or duty ammo?

My fed agency has a directive to use "green" ammo for training, which means no lead, which means a lighter .40 (or any other cal) slug when compared to "real" lead slugs.

Conventional lead ammo is still authorized for duty carry, and is typically a 180 gr JHP when in .40 cal.
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I believe (therefore I speculate) the "green ammo only" deal may be for certain ranges in certain areas. B/c the CG has so many different units, often located hours away from another military installation; we often use a local range owned by the Sherrif's Dept, Local PD, State Police, etc. Only at our larger bases do we have our own private CG range. In my four years I've shot at all of the above for qualification/re-qual courses, depending on what unit I was attached to.
 
Please also notice that according to the Gun Reports story, the authorization was for a maximum amount of 200 million rounds over five years. My guess is that the actual amount purchased will be significantly less.
 
My point was not to critisize how much they ordered.

My ctitisizm is to the 135 grain at 1200 fps? In my opinion if you are going to use this round you might as well just use the 9mm. In fact a 9mm 124 grain at 1250 has better penetration and expansion
 
Don't forget that the duty ammo is shot at each qualification and then replaced with new duty for the next six months of carry. That's at least another half million rounds. I would love to go with the 45 over the 40 but I don't see that ever happening.
 
Yep, this is an older subject.

I remember when they were ordering millions of rounds of the 155gr JHP .40 S&W loads to use in their Beretta's. It was a rough load on the guns but it delivered the ballistic performance felt desirable by the folks making the decisions at the time.

I think it was back at least 5 (or more) years ago that they were working to develop a lighter weight load in the 125-135gr range that would produce the ballistic performance they felt appropriate for their needs, as well as a reduced level of felt recoil. They reportedly decided their needs could be met with a 135gr JHP bullet loaded at a lower velocity than that often seen in the high-velocity loadings seen on the commercial market.

This agency has occasionally said they liked the previous performance of the .357 Magnum revolver loaded with 125gr JHP ammunition, and have reportedly worked to achieve similar observed performance with their choice of .40 S&W ammunition.

Winchester got the last large order for this latest .40 S&W load.

That doesn't necessarily mean that all of the agencies under that fed umbrella will be using it, though.

It's probably going to be unsurprising if ordinary folks who like the increased recoil & muzzle blast of the really lightweight/high velocity loadings in .40 S&W are somewhat disappointed with the "ballistic numbers" of this fed load, but I doubt the feds ordering it were concerned about the approval of the commercial market when they developed it to suit their anticipated needs and desires. ;)
 
tipoc said:
A "bailout" for Winchester.
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You can't be serious.:confused:

Do you honestly think any of the firearms, ammunition, and weapon accessory companies are hurting for cash?

Where have you been for the past two years?

The big ammo companies have been running their production lines around the clock for quite some time now just trying to keep up with demand.

Bailout for Winchester? Highly unlikely, if not impossible...
 
Dang Super Dave, why don't you ask them, or maybe hand wite a ltr to your local Congressional/Senate parasites?

You also asked 'Why' the USMC bought 185 SWC 35 ACP. Who knows? Maybe it was an itch that they had to scratch. Maybe the GAO can devine the answers.

Questions are a good thing. Maybe you might consider pointing them where a definitive answer might be forthcoming.

No dis to you.

I don't know the answers to the questions. They might.

salty
 
I believe its Delaware or Maryland state PD used the 135gr 40cal with great success in shootings, but the round they used was Corbon as I recall. Velocity isn't everything when it comes to bullet performance, design can be as critical if not more important for expansion and penetration.
 
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