why did DoD reject the S&W M&P?

Yet... That does not address the other shortcomings of the 1911...

And if reports are to be believed, it wasn't as reliable in field conditions as people think...
 
Frankly, I think that the FBI and Army went to 9mm because the guns are generally easier for the women to rack the slide.
Click to expand...

Really? I've got a Glock 19 and a 1911 in front of me right now and one doesn't seem dramatically different than the other.
 
The 1911 was not in the running. It was not considered. It was out before the M9 took over.

The last time the U.S. military made a significant order of 1911's was in 1945 IIRC. It soldiered on until replaced by the M9 and the M11. The Marines continued to use it for a bit till phased out and only MARSOC used them.

No major military has used the 1911 as a general issue sidearm for a number of decades now. Here and there some in special forces use it. No army will use it again as a general issue weapon.

You kinda have to start your thinking from there, with realizing those facts.

tipoc
 
The Army chose Sig-Sauer because its criteria required the first three letters of the winner's name to include the letters S, I, and G. There also had to be an "R" in the name.

Believe me people, this is how the Army really decides things.

They should bring back the 1911 and be done with it. Still unsurpassed.
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You have an extremely accurate view of government procurement in general, but especially the Pentagon.
 
Most probable is it dropped out because the M&P is not modular.
Modularity is paramount as I understood.

I have no clue why they even considered the Glock since it is not modular eighter. I am not a fan of Glocks but considered the Beretta model supplied for Trials was an awesome looking gun (but with a Little galaxy Looks).
Considered as well the never Beretta Nano and Pico can not be dry fired and they are prone to firing pin breakage. Cutting costs may have cost Beretta this contract.
I am in favour as well the SIG Sauer wins and as it turned out has won! Congrats to SIG Sauer but lower a bit your Prices!

I do not understand why the Beretta M9 is a bad weapon and the similar/identical Taurus PT92 stainless in 9mm Luger.
I like the Looks of that design and the fact it is all Metall.

Plastik guns where I live can melt in sunshine and so will do the P320 in Irak and other deserts. Therefore an modular design is in that Event an important factor. I know how freaken hot my adjustable stock shotguns get in sunshine even while carrying so I do not want the Plastik be exposed too much to the heat.
Maybe for that reason some troups will stick/go back to the Beretta all Metall M9.
 
Tunnelrat,

Don't be so sure about that.
Put an aluminum kettle ove fire and it will not melt.
Put an Plastik over fire and it will melt.

Plastik is just not the same as aluminum.

I guess most Plastik pistol Frames are not polymer but an sort of Nylon.
 
Don't be so sure about that.
Put an aluminum kettle ove fire and it will not melt.
Put an Plastik over fire and it will melt.
Click to expand...

What you described is not the same as radiated heat from the sun. Yes plastic has a lower melting point than aluminum, but that is not the same as melting in the sunlight.
 
Glocks have seen widespread use in the middle east for a couple of decades now. The U.S. alone purchased tens of thousands of them for distribution to Iraqi security forces a few years back. No reports of any of them melting in the hot sun.

Consider that the M16 and M4 do not melt in the sun. Neither do Glocks.

I personally have been out in the sun many times and not once has my flesh sizzled and fell off my bones like well cooked pork carnitas. I've also been burned by fire and while I'm no science fella, I figure there's a difference.

tipoc
 
When you find it please post it.

Yeager may melt in the sun. I can see that happening. Something like the wicked witch in the Wizard of Oz.

Why don't the plastic dashboards melt?

tipoc
 
JohnKSA writes this following in this thread which Comes the truth the closest I believe https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416945

<<It's impossible to answer the question in the general case because there are many type of polymer pistols and they don't all use the same type of polymer.

One of the more common polymer pistols is made from a type of nylon and the specs for that material indicate that if you can pick the gun up without immediately incurring serious injury from the heat then the polymer will still be structurally sound and the gun will be safe to fire without fear of it being damaged by the stresses of firing. Specific numbers--safe to fire (maintains full structural integrity) if the frame is 260 degrees fahrenheit or less. The frame will not be damaged by heat until the frame temperature exceeds 400 degrees fahrenheit but the frame of the gun should be allowed to cool to below 260 degrees F before the gun is fired.

For reference, the temperature of boiling water is 212 degrees F.
>>

The temp of boiling water is 212 Farenheit. 400 to 500 Farenheit and the polymer gets damaged.
In the desert you can easily boil water on rocks or sand under sunshine. As well you can cook eggs on Stones and rocks under sunshine. And bake flat breads on Stones.
So I would not be to sure if Plastics are a good idea for the middle east and the like.

The plastic Frames will not "melt ya right away out of the Hand" but can come dangerously Close to it's damaging Point.
Melting Points: http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/melting-temperature-metals-d_860.html
Polymer 500 Farenheit
Steel/stainless 2750 F
Lead 621 F
Aluminum 1220 Farenheit

It is way safer to use an aluminum Framed gun. If lead melts put on Stone then the polymer may melt as well.
 
The temp of boiling water is 212 Farenheit. 400 to 500 Farenheit and the polymer gets damaged.
In the desert you can easily boil water on rocks or sand under sunshine. As well you can cook eggs on Stones and rocks under sunshine. And bake flat breads on Stones.
So I would not be to sure if Plastics are a good idea for the middle east and the like.
Click to expand...

400 is a long way from 212.

So I would not be to sure if Plastics are a good idea for the middle east and the like.
It is way safer to use an aluminum Framed gun.
Click to expand...

And yet the US has been using firearms with polymer stocks and forends in the desert for over 15 years consecutively now, without to my knowledge melting being a notable problem. This also doesn't include other nations using firearms with extensive polymer parts that have been part of coalition forces, nor military contractors who have used Glocks and similar in the same conditions.

We went over this exhaustively in a previously thread. The same exact convo. Do we really need to reshash this? Page 7 onward https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=581684&page=7
 
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Yeah... you ain't cooking anything under sunlight in a desert without equipment designed to concentrate the energy.

Air temps in a desert reach at their highest, around 125F... In a vehicle that temp can rise 30-40F due to the nature of glass... You could even think absolute worst case and up that to 50F... either way, the temp is going to be below 200F...
 
Let's drop the discussion of melting Glocks, it's not true and off topic.

We don't need to fry the baloney on small flat rock in the desert, if you get my drift.

TFL is not for unsubstantiated tales.

BTW, I've carried and had Glocks in the 110 degree days in TX. Had them in the car in the range bag when the car heated up to much hotter. They never melted. Geez.
 
The SIG P250/P320 is about 29 oz and the Beretta 92/Taurus PT92 is 34 oz.

Not much of a difference.

I look the issue from the perspective of an Home Defense weapon and not as an carry gun in the field by an soldier.
Even the 34 oz would be just barely heavy enough for me for an 9mm Luger pistol.
Plastik pistols in the ballpark of 22 oz are too lite for the caliber (tto much kick and muzzle flip).
34 oz is about right for an 9mm Luger pistol.
 
EDIT: deleted after reading Glenn's post.

I'd proffer the lighter weight is a factor. Police like it. Other militaries like it. Plus its substantially cheaper.
 
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I just wanted to underline the cheaping out of the modern guns.

But if they are modular it does not matter since you Change simply the Plastik.
I would rather have Chosen the SIG P250 instead.

But anyways like this (if it's the P320 or P250) the soldier can Chose his favourite caliber as well like 9mm Luger, 40 S&W or 357 SIG and I believe even others.
Overall a good choice but better would be the P250 DAO gun.
 
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