Why Carry????????
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Glenn E. Meyer
New member
The answer is what is important to you:
1. A set of values that necessitate helping others even if that puts you at risk.
Thus if you get hurt, that is acceptable as your value set is such that the helping is more important.
2. A ruthless focus on your own survival such that you get through. If others don't - that is not your problem. Also part of this is a ruthless view of my family's well being. Even if they are not there but I become a hero and get shot (like no-shoot mall dude), their lives are disrupted quite negatively. Why should I do that for a stranger?
One can argue about where the value set comes from. Some think it comes from a reasoned philosophy or supernaturally given set of principles. Others think that is part of built in sociobiological principles based on maximizing your gene pool's survival.
Altruism is very complex and it is not just based on the surface views of morality some expound on the Internet.
Even with highly trained and capable folks, the intervention debate is never clear cut. I remember Holschen or Farnham saying (duh), what we say in training and what we do may be quite different at the moment of truth.
We know that all kinds of factors influence the go/no go helping decision.
If I saw a child being kidnapped that's a go. Two adult males pounding on each other, that's a no go. Why? That's the altruism lecture.
I'm working on a project to examine this right now with help from last year the NTI folks and this year the Polite Society gang (many thanks).
1. A set of values that necessitate helping others even if that puts you at risk.
Thus if you get hurt, that is acceptable as your value set is such that the helping is more important.
2. A ruthless focus on your own survival such that you get through. If others don't - that is not your problem. Also part of this is a ruthless view of my family's well being. Even if they are not there but I become a hero and get shot (like no-shoot mall dude), their lives are disrupted quite negatively. Why should I do that for a stranger?
One can argue about where the value set comes from. Some think it comes from a reasoned philosophy or supernaturally given set of principles. Others think that is part of built in sociobiological principles based on maximizing your gene pool's survival.
Altruism is very complex and it is not just based on the surface views of morality some expound on the Internet.
Even with highly trained and capable folks, the intervention debate is never clear cut. I remember Holschen or Farnham saying (duh), what we say in training and what we do may be quite different at the moment of truth.
We know that all kinds of factors influence the go/no go helping decision.
If I saw a child being kidnapped that's a go. Two adult males pounding on each other, that's a no go. Why? That's the altruism lecture.
I'm working on a project to examine this right now with help from last year the NTI folks and this year the Polite Society gang (many thanks).
Glenn, The other day my 9 year old got up and moved several chairs blocking a man in a wheelchair from getting to a table. Was that devine intervention or genetics, or was it hard working parents teaching their kids properly? The first two I don't understand. The proper upbringing I do. Post the outcome of your findings as it sounds very interesting. Would it be possible to ask the participants in your project what kind of upbringing they had? Just to see if it has any relevance.
DunedinDragon
New member
I would hope if I'm faced with this type of situation I'm able to remove any emotional content from the decision such as harm to a family member. Who knows what prompted this guy to put not fire...it could be anything. None of us know what we are capable of until the moment arrives, but given this scenario I know a couple of things I took away from it.
1) Florida law allows us to stand our ground and fire without risk of legal or civil liabilities if it's reasonable to believe our lives, or the life of anyone else may be at risk. Therefore, in this case it's legally justified to shoot given that I KNEW he was shooting at people in the mall...the law in Florida should protect me both legally and civily.
2) Under no circumstances am I encumbered legally with the responsibility of giving someone a verbal order to "put down their gun." To some degree I see that as compensation for not having backup like a police officer has. Therefore, if I deem (1) to be true, I have no intention of calling attention to myself. I view myself at that point as more of a sniper and intend to use that to my advantage if at all possible.
1) Florida law allows us to stand our ground and fire without risk of legal or civil liabilities if it's reasonable to believe our lives, or the life of anyone else may be at risk. Therefore, in this case it's legally justified to shoot given that I KNEW he was shooting at people in the mall...the law in Florida should protect me both legally and civily.
2) Under no circumstances am I encumbered legally with the responsibility of giving someone a verbal order to "put down their gun." To some degree I see that as compensation for not having backup like a police officer has. Therefore, if I deem (1) to be true, I have no intention of calling attention to myself. I view myself at that point as more of a sniper and intend to use that to my advantage if at all possible.
DunedinDragon
New member
776.032 Immunity from criminal prosecution and civil action for justifiable use of force.--
(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer, as defined in s. 943.10(14), who was acting in the performance of his or her official duties and the officer identified himself or herself in accordance with any applicable law or the person using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a law enforcement officer. As used in this subsection, the term "criminal prosecution" includes arresting, detaining in custody, and charging or prosecuting the defendant.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
(3) The court shall award reasonable attorney's fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection (1).
History.--s. 4, ch. 2005-27.
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0776/SEC032.HTM&Title=->2005->Ch0776->Section%20032#0776.032
Pretty kewl, huh????
DoubleD, Thanks. It is sickening that the media only report the preceived negatives in the law. I never read the law because I didn't plan on changing my reaction to a threat anyway......I will run first always if safely possible.
Do you know if it protects you from civil penelty brought by and innocent bystander? not that I intend on harming an innocent
Do you know if it protects you from civil penelty brought by and innocent bystander? not that I intend on harming an innocent
Double Naught Spy
New member
Edison, it isn't about being keyboard commandos or the like. It is about information. Mckown made poor use of information that he should have known long before he was shot at Tacoma Mall. If he actually understood his legal situation, then maybe he would not have stood up without a gun and yelled at the guy.
His story from his own words is posted here.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/5363616p-4853200c.html
Note that McKown apaprently had made up his mind long ago to defend others. In fact, the clasims he carried a gun to defend others (but not himself??).
I don't know which is tougher, trying to be able to pull a trigger to shoot somebody who is shooting people around you or being brave or stupid enough to confront the gunman without a drawn gun. Personally, McKown's story sounds a lot more like post hoc self glorification and excuses than reality. From what was shown on the TV of the mall and the positions of McKown and the shooter, much of the time the shooter would not have had people behind him that McKown was concerned about shooting with an errant round. So that doesn't fly. His claim of not knowing the law doesn't fly either. His statements that we was armed to protect others and that he tried to go after the gunman after he was shot seems to be for attention so that he can be a hero.
Here are my comments from here.... http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189562&page=2&highlight=mckown
As near as I can tell from McKown's own statements, he should be the poster boy for NOT how to respond as a CCW person. In reading McKown's accounts, I am having trouble figuring out anything he did correctly. Heck, from his own accounts, it does not appear that the gunman even knew McKown had a gun as McKown was dropped by the gunman before he had a chance to draw it to use. Sure, he drew it early on, then tucked it in his belt because he didn't want to get in trouble for brandishing in the mall. This was legal information he should have known as a person licensed to carry.
You know, this is one of those examples where McKown probably had a little knownledge that screwed with his mind. McKown stupidly let a fear of legal consequence for brandishing override he thoughts to have the gun out and ready to use in a dynamic shooting situation. I will never understand why people are more fearful of potential/possible future minor legal problems than they are in fear for their own lives.
So the gunman shot McKown and continued to shoot McKown as McKown fell. It sounds like the gunman had better training than McKown and continued his followup shots until he felt McKown was neutralized.
I don't see where McKown or the other supposed CCW folks who didn't draw their guns either actually put up any resistence such that it caused the gunman to change tactics or stop shooting.
I really liked the part how he had planned to crawl after the gunman, but those other people stopped him. I am sure that after being shot several times and crippled, he would have been a force with which to contend, so much more power than before he was shot.
His story from his own words is posted here.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/story/5363616p-4853200c.html
Note that McKown apaprently had made up his mind long ago to defend others. In fact, the clasims he carried a gun to defend others (but not himself??).
I don't know which is tougher, trying to be able to pull a trigger to shoot somebody who is shooting people around you or being brave or stupid enough to confront the gunman without a drawn gun. Personally, McKown's story sounds a lot more like post hoc self glorification and excuses than reality. From what was shown on the TV of the mall and the positions of McKown and the shooter, much of the time the shooter would not have had people behind him that McKown was concerned about shooting with an errant round. So that doesn't fly. His claim of not knowing the law doesn't fly either. His statements that we was armed to protect others and that he tried to go after the gunman after he was shot seems to be for attention so that he can be a hero.
Here are my comments from here.... http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189562&page=2&highlight=mckown
As near as I can tell from McKown's own statements, he should be the poster boy for NOT how to respond as a CCW person. In reading McKown's accounts, I am having trouble figuring out anything he did correctly. Heck, from his own accounts, it does not appear that the gunman even knew McKown had a gun as McKown was dropped by the gunman before he had a chance to draw it to use. Sure, he drew it early on, then tucked it in his belt because he didn't want to get in trouble for brandishing in the mall. This was legal information he should have known as a person licensed to carry.
You know, this is one of those examples where McKown probably had a little knownledge that screwed with his mind. McKown stupidly let a fear of legal consequence for brandishing override he thoughts to have the gun out and ready to use in a dynamic shooting situation. I will never understand why people are more fearful of potential/possible future minor legal problems than they are in fear for their own lives.
So the gunman shot McKown and continued to shoot McKown as McKown fell. It sounds like the gunman had better training than McKown and continued his followup shots until he felt McKown was neutralized.
I don't see where McKown or the other supposed CCW folks who didn't draw their guns either actually put up any resistence such that it caused the gunman to change tactics or stop shooting.
I really liked the part how he had planned to crawl after the gunman, but those other people stopped him. I am sure that after being shot several times and crippled, he would have been a force with which to contend, so much more power than before he was shot.
O.k. it is safe to say everyone speaking on this topic, knows the importance of shot placement...
my question is: if say I were to shoot said BG once in such a manner that a shot through the skull ends the confrontation, with the round stopped safely in terra firma.
What could be the ramifications of this?
In my mind the threat is neutralized and no innocents were injured, problem solved......Am I the only one who thinks this is an adequate solution that should require no further thought
my question is: if say I were to shoot said BG once in such a manner that a shot through the skull ends the confrontation, with the round stopped safely in terra firma.
What could be the ramifications of this?
In my mind the threat is neutralized and no innocents were injured, problem solved......Am I the only one who thinks this is an adequate solution that should require no further thought
DunedinDragon
New member
There's no doubt that we can all be armchair quarterbacks in this situation and come up with a better approach to handling this situation, but we weren't there and we didn't experience the situation, so we can only guess at what our reactions would have been.
I do think what this situation points out is that having a CCW carries with it a responsibility to be well-trained, and not just well trained in shooting, but well trained in all the dimensions that come into play in a situation like this. A lot of gun owners are crack shots, but don't have a clue about the specifics of self-defense laws in their state. That's every bit as much a part of training as learning how to shoot well or understanding the difference between cover and concealment. And that, from my reading of this account, was the weak link in this guy's training. He just wasn't sure. And with guys like Mas Ayoob escalating the fear factor about the ramifications of being in a shootout, it's no wonder that some people might have second thoughts and hesitate when they shouldn't. I'm not suggesting that Mr. Ayoob doesn't have valid points. He does. But he speaks in generalities whereas each state has specific boundaries and ramifications that need to be well understood in order for a person to be confident in their actions.
I do think what this situation points out is that having a CCW carries with it a responsibility to be well-trained, and not just well trained in shooting, but well trained in all the dimensions that come into play in a situation like this. A lot of gun owners are crack shots, but don't have a clue about the specifics of self-defense laws in their state. That's every bit as much a part of training as learning how to shoot well or understanding the difference between cover and concealment. And that, from my reading of this account, was the weak link in this guy's training. He just wasn't sure. And with guys like Mas Ayoob escalating the fear factor about the ramifications of being in a shootout, it's no wonder that some people might have second thoughts and hesitate when they shouldn't. I'm not suggesting that Mr. Ayoob doesn't have valid points. He does. But he speaks in generalities whereas each state has specific boundaries and ramifications that need to be well understood in order for a person to be confident in their actions.
I have been unfortunate enough to have been in the middle of 2 seperate shootings.
One was some yahoos chasing a Subaru Brat full of kids. Apparently the kid's in the Brat gave the wrong hillbilly's the finger. They followed these kids for over 20 miles and into town where they had cornered them in an apartment complex parking lot. It was a hot night and the windows to my apartment where open so I could hear the sounds of the car chase in the parking lot really well. I got up and ran out the front door just in time to see a guy unloading his shotgun into the kids that where riding in the back of the brat. When you see something like this your first response is one of disbelief.
Everything becomes sort of slow mo and you just react in whatever way your flight or flight response takes you. When you see innocents being shot you want to do whatever will make it stop. For me all I could do was yell at the guy shooting. I did not own a gun at this point in my life but I would have given anything for one at that moment. The guy with the shotgun took a couple of shots at me but fortunately for me he was using birdshot which was not very affective at the distances we had between us. It did sting like a MOFO though. Anyway somehow during the time the guy was shooting in my direction the driver of the Brat jumped a curb and took off the back way out of the apartment complex parking lot. The cops showed up taped everything off asked me if I was OK and took my name and a statement and I never heard anything else about it.
The 2nd was right before thanksgiving and I was shopping with my Mom and my neice. While stopped in traffic the passenger in a car stopped ahead of us got out with a pistol in hand and shot the hell out of the guy in the car next to him. My mom freaked. I told her to get the hell out of there (she was driving) and at the same time I was pushing my neices head down below the seat so she couldn't see and so she didn't get hit if this guy was going to start shooting at us next. We were able to hop the curb and escape through a business' driveway. The next day we read in the paper that this was a mexican gang related shooting and that amaizingly the guy that was shot several times lived.
1st incident I would have and should have fired if I would have had a gun. Now when I think about the girl screaming as the guy was shooting them it really pisses me off I wasn't packing at that time.
2nd incident although I would not have changed my course of action (or lack of, since we were not this shooters target) just makes my blood boil. For two reasons, one that this POS gangster would put so much fear into my family by making them witness his attempt to murder a man. And two, that I had still not gotten my CCL even after witnessing the 1st shooting.
It has been many years since those shootings. Now I carry 24/7 and feel guilty if I am not training at least 1X a week (notice I didn't say target practice). I am cartainly not looking for any opportunity to shoot anyone but I have made a concious decision that I will shoot untill the threat is no longer a threat. I am aware of the consequences of my actions and will make it my highest priority to prevent any harm that I may unintentionally inflict on innocent bystanders during an attempt to defend my life, the lives of those in my family or when the lives of innocent women or children are jeopardized.
One was some yahoos chasing a Subaru Brat full of kids. Apparently the kid's in the Brat gave the wrong hillbilly's the finger. They followed these kids for over 20 miles and into town where they had cornered them in an apartment complex parking lot. It was a hot night and the windows to my apartment where open so I could hear the sounds of the car chase in the parking lot really well. I got up and ran out the front door just in time to see a guy unloading his shotgun into the kids that where riding in the back of the brat. When you see something like this your first response is one of disbelief.
Everything becomes sort of slow mo and you just react in whatever way your flight or flight response takes you. When you see innocents being shot you want to do whatever will make it stop. For me all I could do was yell at the guy shooting. I did not own a gun at this point in my life but I would have given anything for one at that moment. The guy with the shotgun took a couple of shots at me but fortunately for me he was using birdshot which was not very affective at the distances we had between us. It did sting like a MOFO though. Anyway somehow during the time the guy was shooting in my direction the driver of the Brat jumped a curb and took off the back way out of the apartment complex parking lot. The cops showed up taped everything off asked me if I was OK and took my name and a statement and I never heard anything else about it.
The 2nd was right before thanksgiving and I was shopping with my Mom and my neice. While stopped in traffic the passenger in a car stopped ahead of us got out with a pistol in hand and shot the hell out of the guy in the car next to him. My mom freaked. I told her to get the hell out of there (she was driving) and at the same time I was pushing my neices head down below the seat so she couldn't see and so she didn't get hit if this guy was going to start shooting at us next. We were able to hop the curb and escape through a business' driveway. The next day we read in the paper that this was a mexican gang related shooting and that amaizingly the guy that was shot several times lived.
1st incident I would have and should have fired if I would have had a gun. Now when I think about the girl screaming as the guy was shooting them it really pisses me off I wasn't packing at that time.
2nd incident although I would not have changed my course of action (or lack of, since we were not this shooters target) just makes my blood boil. For two reasons, one that this POS gangster would put so much fear into my family by making them witness his attempt to murder a man. And two, that I had still not gotten my CCL even after witnessing the 1st shooting.
It has been many years since those shootings. Now I carry 24/7 and feel guilty if I am not training at least 1X a week (notice I didn't say target practice). I am cartainly not looking for any opportunity to shoot anyone but I have made a concious decision that I will shoot untill the threat is no longer a threat. I am aware of the consequences of my actions and will make it my highest priority to prevent any harm that I may unintentionally inflict on innocent bystanders during an attempt to defend my life, the lives of those in my family or when the lives of innocent women or children are jeopardized.
9mm_prn-
A reasonable point of view that no one on TFL or anywhere for that matter should ever degrade you on...You did the best you could in the situation you were given and should be commended on such.
My question is this: If you or I witness a life threatening situation, i.e. shots being fired or a firearm being used in a crime, can we protect the innocents without personal ramifications?
I personally look at it as ramifications be damned...save a life and worry about the rest later.
I just understood it to be that if you or a family member are not the immediate victim/target of violence, you are expected to retreat and call the police....at least this is the impression I have been given in my state.
A reasonable point of view that no one on TFL or anywhere for that matter should ever degrade you on...You did the best you could in the situation you were given and should be commended on such.
My question is this: If you or I witness a life threatening situation, i.e. shots being fired or a firearm being used in a crime, can we protect the innocents without personal ramifications?
I personally look at it as ramifications be damned...save a life and worry about the rest later.
I just understood it to be that if you or a family member are not the immediate victim/target of violence, you are expected to retreat and call the police....at least this is the impression I have been given in my state.
A gun is only an effective defense weapon if you are willing to use it.
I moved to a really red state years ago where $10 and three signatures of friends willing to lie about me could get me a permit.
I went right out and got the permit and a cheap Makarov/shoulder holster. Then I started thinking about when I might actually need it - and realized that if I pulled it out I had to be ready and willing to use it - that is, be willing to kill another person. I also concluded that the chances of being confronted with a situation requiring me to pull out a gun and try to kill someone had only occurred when I served in Viet Nam, and for the remaining 55 years of my life, even the worst situations I encountered were not serious enough to take human life.
I soon decided it didn't make any sense for me to carry. So I sold the Makarov and used the money to buy .223 ammo to shoot Nutria. Turned out to be a good decision. I'm alive and well, have not shot at anyone since 1970,and have murdered hundreds of Nutria.
I moved to a really red state years ago where $10 and three signatures of friends willing to lie about me could get me a permit.
I went right out and got the permit and a cheap Makarov/shoulder holster. Then I started thinking about when I might actually need it - and realized that if I pulled it out I had to be ready and willing to use it - that is, be willing to kill another person. I also concluded that the chances of being confronted with a situation requiring me to pull out a gun and try to kill someone had only occurred when I served in Viet Nam, and for the remaining 55 years of my life, even the worst situations I encountered were not serious enough to take human life.
I soon decided it didn't make any sense for me to carry. So I sold the Makarov and used the money to buy .223 ammo to shoot Nutria. Turned out to be a good decision. I'm alive and well, have not shot at anyone since 1970,and have murdered hundreds of Nutria.
Poor guy was probably thinking about the possible consquences of shooting and killing a bad guy through the eyes of liberal..You kill a bag guy, you saved some lives...But you still killed a bad guy, with a gun no less. civil suit here you come...And by the time the poor guy reached the end of that thought the BG shot him....I hate even thinking about stuff like that but lets face it the liberals want our guns and they don't reall care how they get them.
M665, I was once told that the price of a gun was cheap. After some arguing the salesman told me that when the time came that I needed this gun and didn't have it, at that moment, I would give all my valuables including the shirt off my back for it. So get it now while its cheap. I transfered that logic to carrying. I may never need it but when I do, I will wish I had it, or be glad I did. I hope we never have the need.
Anthony2, I appreciate the very kind words. Thank you.
I find myself thinking about those kids in the Brat from time to time and wonder what happened to them. All I knew was what the cop could tell me while he was taking my statement. I should have called him back to find out or checked the papers. I am still not sure why I wasn't called as a witness.
To answer your question, I know that the laws vary from state to state but no matter what, we can be assured that every attempt will be made to make us look incompetent no matter what reasons we may have for using our guns in the defense of ourselves or others. For myself, I agree with you. I'll try to use my best judgement and deal with the consequences if I do decide to shoot. IMO it's better than living with not doing anything when you possibly could have.
I find myself thinking about those kids in the Brat from time to time and wonder what happened to them. All I knew was what the cop could tell me while he was taking my statement. I should have called him back to find out or checked the papers. I am still not sure why I wasn't called as a witness.
To answer your question, I know that the laws vary from state to state but no matter what, we can be assured that every attempt will be made to make us look incompetent no matter what reasons we may have for using our guns in the defense of ourselves or others. For myself, I agree with you. I'll try to use my best judgement and deal with the consequences if I do decide to shoot. IMO it's better than living with not doing anything when you possibly could have.
It's already been said but I think it is important so I will say it again.
#1 No one knows how they will react under fire until they are under fire.
#2 If you train enough you won't think about how to react you will just do it.
Bear in mind, some will still fail, but if you are trained the chances of this are greatly decreased.
When I was in the army I couldn't figure out why we always did the same thing over and over and over again. But I finally figured out that the reason they did that is when the doo doo hit the fan you didn't think you just did it. Bottom line is training and mental preparation and the only tools you can depend on when someting bad happens. You need to make the descion to shoot way before you pick up the gun.
#1 No one knows how they will react under fire until they are under fire.
#2 If you train enough you won't think about how to react you will just do it.
Bear in mind, some will still fail, but if you are trained the chances of this are greatly decreased.
When I was in the army I couldn't figure out why we always did the same thing over and over and over again. But I finally figured out that the reason they did that is when the doo doo hit the fan you didn't think you just did it. Bottom line is training and mental preparation and the only tools you can depend on when someting bad happens. You need to make the descion to shoot way before you pick up the gun.