Why can't America make better handguns?

Even before the GP-100s "smoothed out", their accuracy was excellent -- just as good as other outstanding Colt, Smith or Ruger .357 magnums -- especially in SA.
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I agree. Accuracy is very impressive on GPs/SPs. In fact I like the Ruger design better than S&W or Colt. I just hate the out of box trigger (DA). Mine hasn't smoothed out yet, and I might have no choice but to have it "smithed" (trigger/action work).
 
Lawyers !
Liberals!
Greed!
& Do Gooders !!

The lazy worker who doesn't care and won't do anymore that absolutely necessary in their job. Many if not most of todays workers figure if they just show up to work they are automatically worth three times what they are being paid. So their bad attitude, translates to bad products.
American pride in manufacturing has gone down the toilet.

I am not trying to start anything! These are just my observations.
 
I shoot a customized Sako rifle with a Swarovski 30mm scope. Regret selling my 1952 Mannlicher Schoenaur and my FN/Saur. Then again none of them were any better than my Dakota, and Butch Scearcy makes some of the finest double rifles in the world right in the States. Loved my P7M8 and I wish I had my Sig 210 back. But both of them were just glorified pieces of plumbing compared to my new STI that Benny Hill built, and the 210 never did shoot as good as my Baer. I got to shoot a Korth revolver once and it was ultra-cool, but not near as nice as my Power Custom on a good old Smith model 10. Like one of the other guys said, some of the finest firearms in the world are made on these shores, if you are willing to pay for them...
 
My original intention was never in workmanship, that can be a thread all by itself. My question is with Engineering and inovation. To me the newest American handguns aren't as cool as the European counterparts. Even with our greatest design, the 1911, why dont we modernize it. Oh sure you can get one that holds 14rnds, or a small one, or a polymer one that hold 14rnds, but why not a 1911a1 with a polymer frame? How great would that be. Imagine how light weight and thin it would be. and a great compact too.
 
TOG & AC's & 45's:

Lawyers cause American gun manufacturers to produce inferior products the same way that bad advertising cause Pinto's to explode. Get real. It was lawyers who wrote the Second Amendment. Further, without lawyers you wouldn't have any right to bear arms because the government would just take your guns away from you. Its no coincidence that there were no lawyers in Soviet Russia or Red China: its a lot easier to suppress your citizens if they have no one to champion their rights. That's why Shakespeare suggests "first, let's kill all the lawyers".

By the way, for purposes of full disclosure, I am a lawyer and proud of it.
 
Quail Fat,

You live a sheltered life. Remington made a ton of handguns over the years, derringers, revolvers, and a couple of semi-autos. Mossberg made a derringer called the Brownie in the 20's, but I don't know of any other handguns.
 
PJ11B3VF7

IMHO:

1) I have always heard that Wilson uses selected Kimber slides and frames, but independently performs the final machining, the finishing and fitting, and the assembly. I cannot verify Jericho's manufacture of the raw forgings.

2) More to the point, the "art" is far more in the precise machining, the fitting and finishing, and so forth than in the production of raw stainless or carbon steel forgings. Many nations (Brazil is a fine example) produce excellent raw castings/forging for handguns, but final manufacture, assembly, mathematical statistical process control, and in-tolerance final product delivery is the key.
 
well der grosse
let me put it a little more specifically for you
the money grabbing lying lawyers that have no morals and are only out for themselves and their wallets are the reason our manufacturing base has been eroded
wonder why people are now lazy in the workplace?
caus ethe lawyers have ruined the school systems with thier liberal freinds that say we must not punish our children in ways that would hurt their self esteem, what about their self esteem when they get busted for smoking crack cause they dont have a job and want to excape from the miserable life they hae made for themselves?
if someone had been allowed to kick their little butts when it was needed they might have turned it around
our tort system is a joke
our criminal system is a joke
why?
too many lawyers that care too much about the money in their pockets and not enough about the long run big picture of how their little lawsuits and plea bargains will affect a precedent stting system
the main problem with the precedent setting system is that over time it gets so bogged down with BS from every point of view that no one but a lawyer can understand it or would want to learn how to talk doubletalk to get their side of the story out
and yes i was a lawyer, but decided that i have too high of a moral standard to have to lie to make a living
and yes i am now an educator (and football coach that believes that athletics is one of the only things holding our schools together)
and yes i know there are spelling and grammar errors in this little peice, but i have little time enough to be interested in other things cool like firearms, guitar, and so forth that to worry about you not being able to understand my gist,
sorry if i spoke too clearly for you, maybe next time i will type up a fanciful bunch of gobbledygook lawyer lingo for you to read and decipher for the rest of us
oh yeah, i understand about there being good lawyers
but another reason i didn't want to be one any more was working with them (the vast majority of the ones that i worked with were backstabbing jerks that i wouldn't trust as far as i could throw them, and i am a really large guy that played college football and can still squat over 500 lbs, i know that doesnt seem like much, but i have no need to squat over 700 like back in the day)
coaches and kids are straight shooters that work together and the vast majority of them stick to some kind of recognizable moral code, they also are a lot more fun
 
other established foreign manufacturers already produce top of the line weapons. To compete, U.S. companies must come up with something that is extraordinary. 'Till then, why fix it if it isn't broken? Actually, I'm interested at having to review new guns from any company, whether it be domestic or imported. Anxious to see what gun design will come out next...
 
Better sit down for this one...S&W makes the slides for Kimber. They also make actions for Weatherby and slides and barrels for the P99. If you purchase a Walther P99 and want the genuine article, make sure it has proof marks and date codes on the frame, slide, and barrel.

Don't give S&W your money.
 
Tog:

I will resist the temptation to ridicule your stream-of consciousness diatribe since I think it does a disservice to this fine forum. Instead, I will ask how you can blame lawyers for the decisions of CEOs to ignore research and development and quality control in favor of executive perks and diversification into non-core businesses. This is the same pattern that U.S. steel companies and Bicycle manufacturers went through. As a result, both industries almost disappeared in the face of foreign competition in the 70's and 80's. However, in the 90's both industries re-devoted themselves to low quantity, high quality and high price products. Now, American specialty steels are the best in the world. And while Schwinns are no longer made here, Trek and Cannnondale produce the highest quality bicycles in the world. Hopefully, U.S. gun manufacturers will follow suit and not fall into the long slow slide of General Motors.

In the meanwhile TOG, ease up on the rhetoric and try not to paint all us lawyers with the same broad brush. Thanks.
 
Here is THE LOWDOWN!

First,
workers have no incentive to make the products as good as they can be. If they raise quality and the company makes more money the employees don't get crap out of it but more work.

It's all about maintaining profit margins for the stock holders.

This is the same thing that is wrong with communism. No reason to do more than the next guy when you get paid the same.

Second, REMEMBER THE BIG ONE!,
ww2 that is. We learned that the Germans had superior weapons in every respect and still do for that matter. It's just that during a big assed war it is a hell of a lot easier to make a lot of less finished, less complicated weapons than it is the more sophisticated weapons. Could you imagine what sort of greif we would go through in wartime if we had to suddenly make a million Sig p210's!!!
OUCH!

THIS IS HOW WE BEAT THE GERMANS! The German Kill ratio by the end of the war was 12 to 1. That is twelve Allied troops died for every German soldier. Same with tanks and planes too. They were kicken our buts....till they couldn't keep up makin them fancy weapons. We made lots and lots more simple crude guns, planes, and tanks for the same unit of work. That and Big American Balls won the war.

Third,
Our socialist education system really churns em out with no work ethic. The new thing now is to maintain their self esteem at all costs. It doesn't matter how crappy the work is, the answer is "Nice effort, Johnny". It makes for happy childhoods but breeds adult LOSER'S.

something to think about -ddt
 
With the exception of the 1911, which was designed by JMB with input from the US Army, there was never a demand for semi-autos in the US compared to revolvers. Until the wonder-nine revolution of the 1980's the police and most civilians were confirmed revolver shooters and frankly because there was no demand for semis the manufacturers were happy to churn out revolvers year after year with minor improvements. Remember the US military only bought revolvers after WW11 until 1985. When the US military adopted the M9 and the police felt they were under-gunned that all changed. US manufacturers can produce quality, look at Smith revolvers from "good" periods. The Europeans have always been semi-auto people, the demand was always there and thus there was the incentive for designers to create good designs. Know of any good, mass produced European revolvers that compare to Smiths or Rugers(Colts at one time)? Korths and Manurheins weren't mass produced. The demand was never there.
 
Ron in Pa

Yes, you have a point but for over fifteen years now there has been a huge market for the semi-auto in America. So why do they still suck in comparison to euroguns?

Could we make a really nice gun here if we wanted to? Sig or Cz quality? How much would it cost? Could we keep the quality up. Toyotas get better every year, Ford and Chevy well it's just sad. Hell the ford focus is one of the best handling cars I've ever been in. Oops! I forgot the Germans designed the suspension. To get a really good All American car you have to go back thirty years. I've got 256,000 miles on my toyota and did 80mph on the way to work today. NEVER EVER gonna happen in 99% of American cars.

I try to buy American when I can, I was even in a union for five years. I will not stand for being ripped off though.

Another problem is the American eye for detail. I don't have to explain this one to anyone I'm sure. -ddt
 
"To compete, U.S. companies must come up with something that is extraordinary."
I guess extraordinary is in the eye of the beholder, but.... I was in a couple gun shops yesterday and couldn't resist coming home with a Kel Tec P11. Here is a 9mm that is the size of most .380s. Light weight, small, and very powerful for it's size. I don't know of any other 9mms this small or smaller. This is certainly less massive than anything Glock had to offer. It is smaller than the Sig .380....... Oh, and it is Made in USA. If it functions like everyone has said it will, it is extraordinary. I also agree with the guy that said, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. One of the main reasons for new gun designs is to sell another gun. Many of these so called improved features are marketing gimmicks. Many of these so called improvements are also designed to make up for lack of skill by the operator. Double Action serves a couple purposes. It makes it easier for the non-skilled operator to fire because they don't have to remember to take off the safety; and it makes it safer for the non skilled operator because they don't have to remember to put the safety on. That is an improvement ? Large capacity magazines are certainly an advantage for those that can't shoot and miss a lot. Of course we also need smaller calibers because we don't want anything to hurt or tender little city hands.
"We learned that the Germans had superior weapons in every respect and still do for that matter. "
Really ? Like what ? The Luger/P38 was better than the 1911 ? I don't think so, I doubt if very many people would agree with that either. The M98 Mauser was better than the '03 Springfield ? I would say it certainly was as good, but I would love to know why it was better. I could go on with this but let me just sum it up; BS
Forign cars better than American cars ? I don't think there are any American cars. If you look into it, the parts or assembly was done outside the US in most cases. I bought an American pickup. My Dodge was made in Mexico. Of course the dealer that sold it to you and the mechanics that work on it (even if that mechanic is you) are all lazy Americans with no work ethic ? If you really believe this about Americans, keep in mind that you are talking about yourself and your children. If that is the case then it is your fault. Of course it would be easy to just say it is always someone else, but as they say, a fox smells it's own hole first. America leads the world in quality manufacturing, technology, you name it. The only thing lacking in American industry and business is cheap labor. Would you feel more comfortable with a product assembled by an American or someone living in a cardboard box ?
 
I gotta agree with 444 on this one. Where are all these "great" European designs? The only notable design I've seen is the Glock, and my knowledge dates back to the days when a 45 Auto meant a Colt or a US Pistol only. The others are just a mish mosh of features from other guns. What Glock did was figure how to use polymer but he wisely kept the Colt/Browning tipping bbl. Walthers, Lugers, Mausers, Berettas, give me a break. While the original luger/mauser/PP had some unique features, they never were a good pistol. Beretta was just a Browning rip-off right from day one.
 
444, BigG

Yes, the Lugers and P38's do suck compared to a 1911 function. The Design of the luger is not as good but the craftsmanship of the best sample of luger is better than the best 1911 of the era. The 9mm and 7.63 Mauser are some awesome rounds though.

Yes, I too believe the sun rises and sets out of John Browning's ass. But I also believe he would roll in his grave if he saw some of the ton's of crap 1911's out there.

I believe this thread is originally talking about craftsmanship not design. Hell all good design's are based on Browning's. DUH. I was pointing out the problems that arose in WW2 as an example of what can happen when you do it their way.

It is pretty well accepted that Paul Mausers bolt action designs were revolutionary and were more reliable than the springfield or the enfield. springfields being the most accurate and enfields being fastest to fire with the largest mag capacity.

Now I guess I should not have said "superior weapons in EVERY respect". I didn't mean to get your panties all bound up.

Now if you wanna pick nits don't forget about the Panzer/Tiger tanks, submarines, the machine gun that we copied into the M60, The funny helmets we copied, Almost every plane, V2's, The invention of the assualt rifle, etc. etc.

As far as Lazy Americans goes...I don't know were you got that from in my post. Must be written on your soap box lid.
"Lazy Americans" I think not. Unmotivated maybe, Lazy no. I did say that American eye for detail is not as good, in general, than the Europeans. When you look at the people we have in say.... our space program you see alot of germans. We wouldn't even have a space program or nukes if it wasn't for German expatriots.

Hey I'm a patriotic American. That doesn't mean I have to blur reality to feed my patriotism. As far as cars go, you just made my point that "to get a really good American car you have to go back thirty years". You bought a car made in in MEXICO!? LOL -ddt
 
ddt4free
Yeah, I bought a truck made in Mexico. Like I said, I thought I was buying American. However, I think it will turn out OK. The Cummins diesel has about 130k on it with only one problem, the fuel pump which was fixed for free. I wasn't addressing you in particular, just some of the comments made in the thread in general. I agree that some of the German stuff was better than ours, but that being said, we defeated it all with our stuff so I think that counts for something. Keep in mind that while they were using the 98 Mauser, we were using the Garand. The Germans also knew enough to take over the FN plant after taking Belgium and started issuing Hi-Powers, another American design. I think we all need to keep in mind that America is different than most countries. The vast majority of the population immigrated here from somewhere else somewhere along the family tree. Sure, many people working in American industry are of forign birth. Many products designed in America are built overseas.
 
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