Why can't America make better handguns?

U

utvols

New member
Ok I know this is going to stir up alot of people so please let me clarify. The US has 3 major handgun producers, and several newer, smaller companies. Out of the big 3 I feel that the 1911, by Colt, is the best design. A design that is 90 years old. Then you have Ruger, who makes a quality pistol that I enjoy, but nothing to truly write home about. S&W tried a modern pistol and according to most accounts failed. What I am saying is that we never see a truly innovative design come from our shores. Compare this to Glock, Steyr, Walther, or H&K. We now see newer manufactorers like Kahr that are doing some immpresive things. However, how hard can it be for our "Big Boys" to create an exciting US market.
Maybe we should send some design ideas to these guys.
 
Most European companies that manufacture any type of machinery tend to have VERY exacting standards and a proud history of design and quality. Whether the items be cars, watches, optics or firearms, you can tell the amount of pride that most European manufacturers put into their products. Something that we as Americans lack is that sense of pride and workmanship. We got plenty of pride but, its usually channeled in the wrong direction. Quality of workmanship is generally put aside in favor of quantity of production and sales.

We live in a real world, anyone trying to buy exclusive USA is fooling themselves. Give a big thank you to your elected officials for generous overseas import and manufacture treaties, and your labor unions for pricing themselves out of any jobs that promote quality. I'll buy Swiss guns, German cars and American trucks. Watch American movies on my Japanese TV while my wife makes cookies with her German blender using German knives.

Of course it doesn't help with todays climate in which guns are perceived to be bad. Just to open a range let alone becoming a dealer requires nearly a Mt. Everest climb of red tape. Who would want to go into firearms manufacture in USA with that type of climate?
 
1933
1968
1986
1994
See where this is going? There just isn't much left to do do a conventional design, and the above restrictions severely limit any new variations. Of the overseas brands you mentioned, how many are being sued into non existance in their home country? Besides the consumer acceptance, domestic manufacturers also need to keep an eye on possible government sanctions. Who wants to spend tens of millions to develop and tool up for a product you can't sell? All of the foreign brands mentioned had an overseas market before being offered here in the US, while the US manufacturers are very limited in what they can ship overseas.( Check out the UN's policy on small arms and you start to get the picture of how all the pieces fall together) Then there's the issue of quality. Look at the overall quality of a S&*, Colt, Kimber, Springfield and Ruger. The things are made to last a lifetime or 2 (for the most part). For most people, 1 handgun is a lifetime investment. Honestly, I'm not much different than most folks in that I really only NEED one handgun, or possibly 2. That's a pretty narrow market. I buy and own more simply because I want them, and I can, but there's a limit to what I can afford,,,just ask my wife ;). Bottom line is there is no one reason, but lots of small reasons. Basicly, the US mfg's are boxed in.

*Pardon my atrocious spelling.
 
Ruger

Of the three major arms manufactures of the US (Colt, S&W, Ruger) I think Ruger has the best QC. That is NOT saying much as although every Ruger I own works right they just are not at all refined. My Ruger P97 for example has slide to frame rattle, tons of side to side play in the trigger, and lots of machine/tool marks. The P97 shoots great, but I just don't like the QC issues. Buying a Ruger P-series is like buying a new car that runs great, but has rattles and poor interior finish. I have completely given up with S&W and Colt. The Colt 1911s I sold off were plagued with QC problems (reliability, trigger, accuracy, parts breaking, I can go on), as was the S&W 3rd Generation I owned.

As Corsair said, I think the problem is the US lack of pride and quality control.

Until/unless America improves its QC, my cars will always be Japanese (or German) and my TVs/electronics Japanese, and my guns German, Czech, or Austrian (with the exception of Ruger which I think is a good value despite the QC problems).
 
The general stupidification (look mom I made a new word :D ) or the American public and manufacturers resting on their laurels.

On the other hand compare for the most part our ability to own the weapons of our choice vs the rights of people in other countries ie Germany, Sweden, Austria.
 
Poor upper management attitude!

European companies care about engineering. European companies want to meet a companies engineers before they do business with that company. American companies send marketing people. American companies view engineering as a necessary evil. American companies are generally managed by bean counters. You have to go down 5 or 6 levels at GM to find someone who knows anything about manufacturing or designing a car. What good comes out of the American gun industry comes from a few creative geniuses with passion. You can forget Colt, S&W, and Ruger. Ruger lost his innovative flair a long time ago. Look to Kahr, Kimber, Springfield, Keltec, North American Arms, Seecamp and so on for innovation.
 
Perhaps if few people bought from Ruger, S&W, or Colt they might be forced to improve their product? If people stopped supporting these companies, the CEOs would be forced to either change their attitudes or go bankrupt.
 
Here's an interesting tid-bit. My local 'smith was at a firearms convention a few years ago and spent some time talking to a few of the Japanese contract manufacturers that do work for Browning USA, and a few other major manufacturers. These Japanese businessmen, some Sales and some mechanical engineers, said that American companies that get quotes for contract manufacturing get 3 line quotes. One for +/- .000 tolerance, one for +/- .001 tolerance and another for something like +/- .003. They said the American gun manufacturers always choose the lower price quote and they (the Japanese) get the blame for poor quality.

American companies want "fast food" profits. They want profits NOW, for the next board meeting. To hell with 5 years down the road. Screw the "tradition" of quality. These guys want the profits immediately. If we can put a space shuttle in orbit over 100 times then we can damn sure make a better firearm. But like someone else said, we need to get the beancounters out of the shop and let the talented engineers and craftsmen do their stuff.

One more thing, why do we have poor quality American made guns?

Because we allow it by continuing to buy the damn things.

CMOS
 
CMOS hit a good tangent........

What do we consider US made?

Sig-Sauer is New Hampshire.
Beretta is in Maryland.

........heck, parts for "US" guns are made in Japan.

This is getting to be a very small world.
 
Exacting standards can be found here only you will have to shell out the clams...Les Baer, Wilson, Ed Brown, STI, etc.
 
Your post, utvols, specifies "handguns". I respectfully suggest some excellent handguns are US manufactured. For example:

Revolvers: Smith "N" frames, Ruger GP-100s, Colt Pythons
Autoloaders: 1911A1 types (Wilson, Baer, Springfield, Kimber)

This is just the "tip of the iceberg". No doubt, Glocks, Sigs, H&Ks and even CZs are excellent, but are they any better than a Ruger KGP-141 or a top-flight 1911A1?
 
Your post, utvols, specifies "handguns". I respectfully suggest some excellent handguns are US manufactured. For example:

Revolvers: Smith "N" frames, Ruger GP-100s, Colt Pythons
Autoloaders: 1911A1 types (Wilson, Baer, Springfield, Kimber)
Click to expand...

I agree. Every thing you listed here (especially the Python and 1911s) are excellent.

This is just the "tip of the iceberg". No doubt, Glocks, Sigs, H&Ks and even CZs are excellent, but are they any better than a Ruger KGP-141 or a top-flight 1911A1?
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree regarding the KGP-141......

They are all better than the GP 100 IMO. As much as a love Ruger revolvers (I have two), the trigger pull is just pathetic in DA. My GP (and SP) feel like 15 lbs in weight and they are not even smooth! The GP 100 is a wonderful design, but I just can't stand the out of the box trigger pull in DA. The SA pulls are decent BTW, but not great.
 
Used Colt Series 70 and now even series 80 guns are worth alot more than their NEW equivalents... even though tons of them were made and they aren't old enough to be true collectables. Why? Because they were good quality, while a large proportion of the 1991A1s out there suck. They are called "baby rattles" for good reason. My used Delta Elite (not a Gold Cup, just a bone-basic 80-series model) is nearly as tight as a new Kimber and shot like a dream even when it was bone stock. It is a great product that I can have customized without feeling like I'm hot-rodding a Pinto.

Colt seems to be willfully stupid sometimes: they came out with an awesome gun, the XS-series, that looked FANTASTIC, was high quality, and was equipped to compete head-to-head with Kimber & SA's Loaded pistols... America's glory days are back!

...so they promptly DUMBED IT DOWN to the cheap-ass XSE and charged way too much for it. I'm getting charged $700 and don't even get an extended thumb safety? What's all this plastic crap??? And if the roll-markings on the 1991A1 don't prove that somebody at Colt is an idiot I don't know what does. I dare you to show me a 1991A1 and tell me that "Everything else is just a copy" without laughing your butt off. Compare their product line to Kimber or Springfield Armory and tell me that *COLT* didn't put THEMSELVES out of business.

Now if Colt starts selling XS-series pistols for $700 and re-introduces the Python and Delta Elite all will be forgiven. :D
 
As a senior citizen I find little as well made as
"it use to be" while we have made great advances in
technology our quality control has went to hell. Throw
in mass greed from all and you can see what we have.
I have a 30 year Smith that has a "mirror" blue, can
we still do this yes, will we, no.!!
 
Americans are spoiled by good life. That's the reason they
can not be the best of the best of the best in everything they touch. Just no need even to try..."if it does not break, do not fix it". But, when it's extremely important for survival/domination/power, Americans can do their best stuff.

I believe the best revolvers and best utility shotguns are made in this country. This is historically based phenomena. Anything else in the field of small arms could be a bit better, whatever the reasons are...
 
LOL the fact that you picked the 1911 as the best american handgun says it all... Americans have been extremely conservative in what they wanted in guns, hand or long. That doesn't exactly encourage innovation on the manufactuer's part. Look at poor Smith and Wesson. Their extensive line of auto pistols got no respect in this country largely, I think due to people looking crosseyed at an american pistol that wasn't a 1911, cocked and locked.

shiro
 
I like American made guns. I have owned a whole lot of handguns, and can afford pretty much anything within reason, and I don't think American firearms take a back seat to anyone's. There is another thread running listing your favorite handguns in each caliber. I answered honestly and without prejudice. All of my answers were American made and as far as I know, are all currently being manufactured. I own some of the Europeon autoloaders and have owned most of the others in the past (never had an HK), however, I don't think something is better just because it is new. I don't think something is better because it is Europeon (you have heard about the definition of an expert....). I don't think something is better because it is plastic. I don't think something is better because it is double action. I don't think something is better just because it holds more ammo. I do however think that something that has been proven time and time again for many years in many different environments is superior to something that is new and unproven until the new gun proves itself. If you don't agree, great, be happy we both have our choices. I probably own in excess of 20 American made handguns and can name a half dozen more right off the top of my head that I would love to own in the future. Check out the other thread. The euros are well represented, but there are a whole lot of American made products named as their favorites.
 
I agree with corsair. I have owned American made handguns and will never own another. I have also owned "European"
handguns built right here in the US. No thanks. There is no comparison of quality and workmanship that the Germans, Austrians, and Italians put into their weapons design and manufacturing when built right in their own countries.

The big three in Germany would probably laugh if they inspected one of our plants or the products that they produce. Machine and tool marks still visible, parts that don't fit quite right, uneven edges on corners, and finishing, that in a few cases, looks like I did it in my basement.

Heck, we don't even test ours before they're sold. Maybe if we had proof laws in this country American manufacturing standards might go up. Then again...

OK, I'm glad that's out. Remember, all of this was only my opinion.
 
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Not really trying to "pick nits" re the GP-100, however, I respectfully suggest my experience -- I own two KGP-141s -- indicates that after approximately 1000 rounds the triggers become just as smooth as my two Smith 627 Special Edition "N" frames . . . and that's darn smooth.

Even before the GP-100s "smoothed out", their accuracy was excellent -- just as good as other outstanding Colt, Smith or Ruger .357 magnums -- especially in SA.
 
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