Destructo6
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I don't but that scenario for a minute. The only support you gave was to the idea that foreign involvement in local affairs was hazardous. Our own included.
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Why bombing Yugoslavia is justified
- Thread starter chink
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cornered rat
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http://www.attackcartoons.com/
And here's another view...
And here's another view...
Chink,
I am totally opposed to what we're doing in the former Yugoslavia. Here are several of my reasons:
1. I have two sons currently in the Army. One is in S. Korea, which is a hot spot where we have legitimate reasons for our presentce. The other is with the 82nd Airborne Division at Fort Bragg.
My son at Fort Bragg and I have discussed this situation at length. We both know that the military is trained for war and his participation in the Army can be hazardous. However, following an incompetent commander in chief into an unwinable situation with no reachable goal in sight is crazy. His fellow paratroopers, at least those with whom he's spoken about this, all feel the same way. They're professionals and will fight where they're sent. But they all feel this is a mistake in the making.
2. President Clinton and his dream team have no blessed idea what they're doing here. Anyone with half a military brain knows that bombing alone has never stopped an agressor. By the time this fool and his people decide to put ground troops in, all the Albanians will be gone from Kososvo anyway. We can't mount a ground offensive with hundreds of thousands of troops within any reasonable time frame.
We went into this in a totally unprepared manner.
3. Even if we succeeded with ground forces in repatriating the Kosovo Albanians, how long would we have to keep troops on the ground over there? 20 years? 50 years? 100 years?
4. What can we possibly do to get the Serbs and the Kosovar Albanians to "love one another?" We're dealing with a 600 year history of hatred between these people. Can we dissolve that with the liberals' "love one another" rhetoric?
Chink, there are other reasons why, in my mind, this is the biggest mistake Billy Boy has ever made as president, but I won't go into them here for the sake of brevity.
Suffice it to say that my sons will do their sworn duty as US Army soldiers and follow orders, even though they're unfortunately following a commander in chief who knows nothing about Duty, Honor, Country.
Nazman
I am totally opposed to what we're doing in the former Yugoslavia. Here are several of my reasons:
1. I have two sons currently in the Army. One is in S. Korea, which is a hot spot where we have legitimate reasons for our presentce. The other is with the 82nd Airborne Division at Fort Bragg.
My son at Fort Bragg and I have discussed this situation at length. We both know that the military is trained for war and his participation in the Army can be hazardous. However, following an incompetent commander in chief into an unwinable situation with no reachable goal in sight is crazy. His fellow paratroopers, at least those with whom he's spoken about this, all feel the same way. They're professionals and will fight where they're sent. But they all feel this is a mistake in the making.
2. President Clinton and his dream team have no blessed idea what they're doing here. Anyone with half a military brain knows that bombing alone has never stopped an agressor. By the time this fool and his people decide to put ground troops in, all the Albanians will be gone from Kososvo anyway. We can't mount a ground offensive with hundreds of thousands of troops within any reasonable time frame.
We went into this in a totally unprepared manner.
3. Even if we succeeded with ground forces in repatriating the Kosovo Albanians, how long would we have to keep troops on the ground over there? 20 years? 50 years? 100 years?
4. What can we possibly do to get the Serbs and the Kosovar Albanians to "love one another?" We're dealing with a 600 year history of hatred between these people. Can we dissolve that with the liberals' "love one another" rhetoric?
Chink, there are other reasons why, in my mind, this is the biggest mistake Billy Boy has ever made as president, but I won't go into them here for the sake of brevity.
Suffice it to say that my sons will do their sworn duty as US Army soldiers and follow orders, even though they're unfortunately following a commander in chief who knows nothing about Duty, Honor, Country.
Nazman
You cannot properly debate the subject without seeing this:
http://kosova.com/f980310.htm
No complaints about these being too "graphic" please. You wanna argue about the subject, you've got to actually know what's going on "at gut level".
Jim March
http://kosova.com/f980310.htm
No complaints about these being too "graphic" please. You wanna argue about the subject, you've got to actually know what's going on "at gut level".
Jim March
Gosh Jim...
Now I have new facts to debate from.
This is the same kind of emotional pandering the anti-gun lobby perpetrates. Remove intellectual concepts and replace with emotionally charged pictures. Those pictures do not change the facts that have been presented in all these Kosovo threads...
A non-planned military operation, lacking in any strategic and tactical merit, into one of the most historically volatile and unstable regions of the earth, and having no national interest value whatsover.
------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
Now I have new facts to debate from.
This is the same kind of emotional pandering the anti-gun lobby perpetrates. Remove intellectual concepts and replace with emotionally charged pictures. Those pictures do not change the facts that have been presented in all these Kosovo threads...
A non-planned military operation, lacking in any strategic and tactical merit, into one of the most historically volatile and unstable regions of the earth, and having no national interest value whatsover.
------------------
"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes"
According to all the news report out of Kosovo, the Kosovars want us there bombing. This could be the first time is years were the people we are protecting want us there. Other NATO countries are getting into also. German is sending aid and flying refugees out, GB is her ships and aircraft.
The brutality of Milosevic can not be ignored. As long as ground troops aren't used, I don't have a problem with what we are doing. eventually, we will destroy milosevics military capablities and then is we have to send a tomahawk in there every couple of months to keep him honest, then thats ok with me. We will always have planes and ships in the region, so its not like we will be dedicating forces to the area that would have been somewhere else.
and the battle continues
The brutality of Milosevic can not be ignored. As long as ground troops aren't used, I don't have a problem with what we are doing. eventually, we will destroy milosevics military capablities and then is we have to send a tomahawk in there every couple of months to keep him honest, then thats ok with me. We will always have planes and ships in the region, so its not like we will be dedicating forces to the area that would have been somewhere else.
and the battle continues
Chink,
Here's another veiw of this whole pile of s**t.
A retired co-worker of mine who was a displaced person from Yugoslavia after WW2 explained this mess to me like this.
He said that the Albanians migrated into the Kosovo region over a period of time. Eventually they became the majority. And then the fun began. They embarked on harassment and terrorism against the Yugoslavs. Stuff like gang beatings in schools, burning houses, churches and the like. Well, the Soviets clamped the iron fist on all these sh*theads, and the shenanigans stopped.
Well now, the cold war's over, and it's back to the same old I hate you, you hate me garbage. But with a twist. Seems the ethnic Serbs ended up with all the good military hardware and the Albanians got none. So, they stayed low profile. Until Albania needed some cash and the Kosovo Albanians ended up with some guns and began thier terrorist war anew.
Well, thats not 'ol Milosoa**holivich's game plan so payback's a b*tch.
Now, the majority of europe views this area as a good for nothing hole in the wall, and the people as violent, worthless, no good mongrels. So, guess what? They don't care if they kill each other off for no good reason. They seem to have a bad taste in thier mouths about the area. I can only speculate as to why. Feel the sarcasm?
Now , do you really think for one second that NATO bombing the Yugoslavs is going to solve one damn thing? Is 600 yrs plus of religious and ethnic hatred going to quelled by NATO bombs? Is Milo going to chill out because we can send a cruise missle up his a**?
The answer to that is NO. Guess what what, they want to fight, they want to kill each other.
That region is not worth one drop of American blood.
I'll stop now. I apologize to any Serb or Albanian a**hole who I may have offended. The thought of good American troops dying over nothing really makes my blood boil.
------------------
Dan
Check me out at:
www.mindspring.com/~susdan/interest.htm
www.mindspring.com/~susdan/GlocksnGoodies.htm
Here's another veiw of this whole pile of s**t.
A retired co-worker of mine who was a displaced person from Yugoslavia after WW2 explained this mess to me like this.
He said that the Albanians migrated into the Kosovo region over a period of time. Eventually they became the majority. And then the fun began. They embarked on harassment and terrorism against the Yugoslavs. Stuff like gang beatings in schools, burning houses, churches and the like. Well, the Soviets clamped the iron fist on all these sh*theads, and the shenanigans stopped.
Well now, the cold war's over, and it's back to the same old I hate you, you hate me garbage. But with a twist. Seems the ethnic Serbs ended up with all the good military hardware and the Albanians got none. So, they stayed low profile. Until Albania needed some cash and the Kosovo Albanians ended up with some guns and began thier terrorist war anew.
Well, thats not 'ol Milosoa**holivich's game plan so payback's a b*tch.
Now, the majority of europe views this area as a good for nothing hole in the wall, and the people as violent, worthless, no good mongrels. So, guess what? They don't care if they kill each other off for no good reason. They seem to have a bad taste in thier mouths about the area. I can only speculate as to why. Feel the sarcasm?
Now , do you really think for one second that NATO bombing the Yugoslavs is going to solve one damn thing? Is 600 yrs plus of religious and ethnic hatred going to quelled by NATO bombs? Is Milo going to chill out because we can send a cruise missle up his a**?
The answer to that is NO. Guess what what, they want to fight, they want to kill each other.
That region is not worth one drop of American blood.
I'll stop now. I apologize to any Serb or Albanian a**hole who I may have offended. The thought of good American troops dying over nothing really makes my blood boil.
------------------
Dan
Check me out at:
www.mindspring.com/~susdan/interest.htm
www.mindspring.com/~susdan/GlocksnGoodies.htm
i ain't never said it wasn't bad over there,
the pictures linked to on Jims thread prove
that it is indeed bad. But doesn't change the fact that we don't need to be there. if we want to help the albanians, then arm them and
let them fight their own civil war. we are sending our troops to fight and possible die for a group of people that don't seem to want to fight for theirselves. don't expect me to try to help you, if you won't even try to help yourself!!! jmo!
------------------
fiat justitia
[This message has been edited by longhair (edited April 05, 1999).]
the pictures linked to on Jims thread prove
that it is indeed bad. But doesn't change the fact that we don't need to be there. if we want to help the albanians, then arm them and
let them fight their own civil war. we are sending our troops to fight and possible die for a group of people that don't seem to want to fight for theirselves. don't expect me to try to help you, if you won't even try to help yourself!!! jmo!
------------------
fiat justitia
[This message has been edited by longhair (edited April 05, 1999).]
I really don't like that fact that we are over there either. I know the history of the region, and the only reason that this didn't blow up earlier is because tito (I think it was Tito) was a good dictator, with not bais, he hated everyone and kept everyone down. Now Milosevic is in power and he likes his serbians, and hates everyone else.
But what is happening over there can't be ignored. This battle was something that was inevitable. it could have happened 30 years ago or next 30 years. It was just waiting for a weak leader to take power. Milosevic's lack of power, plus is prejudgices have made the time right for this situation.
Also, it is good to test the weapons in our aresenal, all the testing it the world won't give you the real world capablities of a weapon.
But what is happening over there can't be ignored. This battle was something that was inevitable. it could have happened 30 years ago or next 30 years. It was just waiting for a weak leader to take power. Milosevic's lack of power, plus is prejudgices have made the time right for this situation.
Also, it is good to test the weapons in our aresenal, all the testing it the world won't give you the real world capablities of a weapon.
I agree with Longhair.
I don`t want to come off as cold or heartless, if my family or loved ones had just been killed by someone, my first thought would probably NOT to flea.
I know it`s easy to say I`d do this or that when no one is shooting at you.
How can someone, in good conscience, ask me to do something that you are not willing to do?
But I am not the president.
I don`t want to come off as cold or heartless, if my family or loved ones had just been killed by someone, my first thought would probably NOT to flea.
I know it`s easy to say I`d do this or that when no one is shooting at you.
How can someone, in good conscience, ask me to do something that you are not willing to do?
But I am not the president.
Jim March's citing of the Kosovo website with the graphic pictures of dead people certainly shows that atrocities are being perpetrated there. From what I've heard, atrocities have been perpetrated on both sides.
Atrocities were carried out in greater numbers in Rwanda between the Hutus and the Tutsi's recently. Why didn't we go there and join that war? Is it because these are white people? Is it because Clinton wants a legacy? Is it to save NATO?
Atrocities WILL NOT be stopped merely by a bombing campaign.
This administration thinks it can misuse the military while downsizing it beyond reason and that it can be done without any personal costs in American lives. This is a typical stupid, liberal point of view.
We cannot stop all atrocities taking place in this world. We were never meant to do so. This president, however, wants to establish himself as a military humanitarian. He's interested in only one thing in all this - his legacy. As ususal, Bill Clinton is concerned with Bill Clinton, and all others be damned!
That's why we shouldn't be there. We have no business there, and we're not even doing the job we set out to do the right way. WHAT A MESS!
Nazman
Atrocities were carried out in greater numbers in Rwanda between the Hutus and the Tutsi's recently. Why didn't we go there and join that war? Is it because these are white people? Is it because Clinton wants a legacy? Is it to save NATO?
Atrocities WILL NOT be stopped merely by a bombing campaign.
This administration thinks it can misuse the military while downsizing it beyond reason and that it can be done without any personal costs in American lives. This is a typical stupid, liberal point of view.
We cannot stop all atrocities taking place in this world. We were never meant to do so. This president, however, wants to establish himself as a military humanitarian. He's interested in only one thing in all this - his legacy. As ususal, Bill Clinton is concerned with Bill Clinton, and all others be damned!
That's why we shouldn't be there. We have no business there, and we're not even doing the job we set out to do the right way. WHAT A MESS!
Nazman
Jim March's citing of the Kosovo website with the graphic pictures of dead people certainly shows that atrocities are being perpetrated there. From what I've heard, atrocities have been perpetrated on both sides.
Atrocities were carried out in greater numbers in Rwanda between the Hutus and the Tutsi's recently. Why didn't we go there and join that war? Is it because these are white people? Is it because Clinton wants a legacy? Is it to save NATO?
Atrocities WILL NOT be stopped merely by a bombing campaign.
This administration thinks it can misuse the military while downsizing it beyond reason and that it can be done without any personal costs in American lives. This is a typical stupid, liberal point of view.
We cannot stop all atrocities taking place in this world. We were never meant to do so. This president, however, wants to establish himself as a military humanitarian. He's interested in only one thing in all this - his legacy. As ususal, Bill Clinton is concerned with Bill Clinton, and all others be damned!
That's why we shouldn't be there. We have no business there, and we're not even doing the job we set out to do the right way. WHAT A MESS!
Nazman
Atrocities were carried out in greater numbers in Rwanda between the Hutus and the Tutsi's recently. Why didn't we go there and join that war? Is it because these are white people? Is it because Clinton wants a legacy? Is it to save NATO?
Atrocities WILL NOT be stopped merely by a bombing campaign.
This administration thinks it can misuse the military while downsizing it beyond reason and that it can be done without any personal costs in American lives. This is a typical stupid, liberal point of view.
We cannot stop all atrocities taking place in this world. We were never meant to do so. This president, however, wants to establish himself as a military humanitarian. He's interested in only one thing in all this - his legacy. As ususal, Bill Clinton is concerned with Bill Clinton, and all others be damned!
That's why we shouldn't be there. We have no business there, and we're not even doing the job we set out to do the right way. WHAT A MESS!
Nazman
Jim March's citing of the Kosovo website with the graphic pictures of dead people certainly shows that atrocities are being perpetrated there. From what I've heard, atrocities have been perpetrated on both sides.
Atrocities were carried out in greater numbers in Rwanda between the Hutus and the Tutsi's recently. Why didn't we go there and join that war? Is it because these are white people? Is it because Clinton wants a legacy? Is it to save NATO?
Atrocities WILL NOT be stopped merely by a bombing campaign.
This administration thinks it can misuse the military while downsizing it beyond reason and that it can be done without any personal costs in American lives. This is a typical stupid, liberal point of view.
We cannot stop all atrocities taking place in this world. We were never meant to do so. This president, however, wants to establish himself as a military humanitarian. He's interested in only one thing in all this - his legacy. As ususal, Bill Clinton is concerned with Bill Clinton, and all others be damned!
That's why we shouldn't be there. We have no business there, and we're not even doing the job we set out to do the right way. WHAT A MESS!
Nazman
Atrocities were carried out in greater numbers in Rwanda between the Hutus and the Tutsi's recently. Why didn't we go there and join that war? Is it because these are white people? Is it because Clinton wants a legacy? Is it to save NATO?
Atrocities WILL NOT be stopped merely by a bombing campaign.
This administration thinks it can misuse the military while downsizing it beyond reason and that it can be done without any personal costs in American lives. This is a typical stupid, liberal point of view.
We cannot stop all atrocities taking place in this world. We were never meant to do so. This president, however, wants to establish himself as a military humanitarian. He's interested in only one thing in all this - his legacy. As ususal, Bill Clinton is concerned with Bill Clinton, and all others be damned!
That's why we shouldn't be there. We have no business there, and we're not even doing the job we set out to do the right way. WHAT A MESS!
Nazman
Rich Lucibella
Staff
Jim-
I appreciate your point. People in America see these pictures and assume we can and must do something. I, and perhaps you, feel they point out the simple and ugly face of civil war. In any case, these pictures must be seen before one comes down on one side or the other.
Perhaps I'm wrong in advising that we give the other side capability to perform the same attrocities or use their firepower against military targets, as their consciences may decide....but that's my opinion. In any case, I don't think the answer is to cover these images with American blood. (ie: I've looked at the images and have not been swayed, though I thank you for bringing it home.)
I think it takes great courage for you to point out this side of the conflagration. I just don't wish to see you attacked as you have been elsewhere for pointing out this Reality of War. Carry on.
Regards,
Rich Lucibella
I appreciate your point. People in America see these pictures and assume we can and must do something. I, and perhaps you, feel they point out the simple and ugly face of civil war. In any case, these pictures must be seen before one comes down on one side or the other.
Perhaps I'm wrong in advising that we give the other side capability to perform the same attrocities or use their firepower against military targets, as their consciences may decide....but that's my opinion. In any case, I don't think the answer is to cover these images with American blood. (ie: I've looked at the images and have not been swayed, though I thank you for bringing it home.)
I think it takes great courage for you to point out this side of the conflagration. I just don't wish to see you attacked as you have been elsewhere for pointing out this Reality of War. Carry on.
Regards,
Rich Lucibella
Byron Quick
Staff In Memoriam
Chink,
1) The last time Europe had a leader that practiced ethinic cleanses, it was this mad mad named hitler, who eventaully started WW2
Historically inaccurate. The last European leader who practiced "ethnic cleansing" among his many other "reasons" for killing large numbers of his subjects was Josef Stalin-one of the victors of WWII. His total kill is estimated at least 60 million. No one really knows.
2) Milosevic has a prior record of waging war through genocide, see bosnia several years a go and Crotia, about the same time frame.
So? Because someone got away with murder yesterday, they should be able to get away with it today also?
3) milosevic will reject any treaty with armed forces in Kosovo.
Milosevic cannot reject anything if he is dead.
Personally, I am against this miltary adventure of Willie's. Nato? The US is NATO. Someone mentioned the people of the US howling to get out if our POW's are murdered.
I think not. Howling for Milosevic's blood maybe. The Japanese made the mistake of underestimating the will of the common people of the US once. They thought we were soft and weak. Interested only in money and comfort. To a point they were correct. But they did not assess where that point was with sufficient accuracy and inadvertently crossed the invisible line. They paid. As I said before, I'm against the crap I see happening. But if our POW's are killed by Milosevic's order or by his inaction, I,personally, want to see the entire power of the US dedicated to nailing him to a telephone pole.
1) The last time Europe had a leader that practiced ethinic cleanses, it was this mad mad named hitler, who eventaully started WW2
Historically inaccurate. The last European leader who practiced "ethnic cleansing" among his many other "reasons" for killing large numbers of his subjects was Josef Stalin-one of the victors of WWII. His total kill is estimated at least 60 million. No one really knows.
2) Milosevic has a prior record of waging war through genocide, see bosnia several years a go and Crotia, about the same time frame.
So? Because someone got away with murder yesterday, they should be able to get away with it today also?
3) milosevic will reject any treaty with armed forces in Kosovo.
Milosevic cannot reject anything if he is dead.
Personally, I am against this miltary adventure of Willie's. Nato? The US is NATO. Someone mentioned the people of the US howling to get out if our POW's are murdered.
I think not. Howling for Milosevic's blood maybe. The Japanese made the mistake of underestimating the will of the common people of the US once. They thought we were soft and weak. Interested only in money and comfort. To a point they were correct. But they did not assess where that point was with sufficient accuracy and inadvertently crossed the invisible line. They paid. As I said before, I'm against the crap I see happening. But if our POW's are killed by Milosevic's order or by his inaction, I,personally, want to see the entire power of the US dedicated to nailing him to a telephone pole.
spartacus
If I remember right (which I might not) Stalin didn't really do ethnic cleansing, more the indiscriminate killing of all people who did not agree with him. It is something that happens when leaders of closed socialist societies feel treatened. Mao did it in China during the cultural revolution,
Castro does it some time. It s not the same as making a concerted effort of eliminate a race of people.
If I remember right (which I might not) Stalin didn't really do ethnic cleansing, more the indiscriminate killing of all people who did not agree with him. It is something that happens when leaders of closed socialist societies feel treatened. Mao did it in China during the cultural revolution,
Castro does it some time. It s not the same as making a concerted effort of eliminate a race of people.
Destructo6
New member
Chink, you're right, Stalin pretty much slaughtered anyone who he thought was against him, or maybe just not wholly with him.
On the other hand, is "ethnic cleansing" what's going on in Kosovo, or is it religious cleansing? Basically it's the traditional Christian (catholic) vs. Muslim conflict that's been going on for a thousand plus years.
On the other hand, is "ethnic cleansing" what's going on in Kosovo, or is it religious cleansing? Basically it's the traditional Christian (catholic) vs. Muslim conflict that's been going on for a thousand plus years.
My point with that URL is that we should not theorize without having a gut-level feel for the problem.
There's more in there than just bodies. One pic of an older guy past combative age with both eyes cut out can *only* be a result of -=HATE=- - so it's worth knowing the "level of problems" we're dealing with.
I too seriously doubt the current plan is gonna work. I think if we *can* do something useful we should but I'm not at all sure we can.
A 50BMG from 2500 yards out heading right at Milosevic certainly sounds like an idea who's time has come though, don't it?
Jim March
There's more in there than just bodies. One pic of an older guy past combative age with both eyes cut out can *only* be a result of -=HATE=- - so it's worth knowing the "level of problems" we're dealing with.
I too seriously doubt the current plan is gonna work. I think if we *can* do something useful we should but I'm not at all sure we can.
A 50BMG from 2500 yards out heading right at Milosevic certainly sounds like an idea who's time has come though, don't it?
Jim March
I think "ethnic cleansing" is the correct is the correct term because the its the ethinic alabains Milosevic is slaughtering. not jsut the muslims, although the Bosnia and I think Croatia, he went after the muslims there also. maybe he has a probelm is islam the same way hilter had a problem with the Jewish faith?
Jim-unfortunately it is against international law to go after foreign leader when were are not in a declared state of war. Congress hasn't declared ware therefore, we can't send the .50 BMG at him. plus, how we gonna get that close? this guys probably to tight ass even in the bathroom. dictators are typically extremely paranoid. and i don't think milosevic is anydifferent considering how many people he has pissed off
garrick
Jim-unfortunately it is against international law to go after foreign leader when were are not in a declared state of war. Congress hasn't declared ware therefore, we can't send the .50 BMG at him. plus, how we gonna get that close? this guys probably to tight ass even in the bathroom. dictators are typically extremely paranoid. and i don't think milosevic is anydifferent considering how many people he has pissed off
garrick
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