Why aren't today's semi-auto pistols more reliable?

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ezmiraldo

New member
Hey guys and gals! This is philosophical question (or, perhaps just a rant - you decide :)). But, hopefully we can have good discussion. I'm curious as to why can't semi-auto pistols be made to be more reliable? I've owned glock 19, 29, and sig p226 (in 9mm, 10mm, and 9mm, respectively) and all had some problems (glocks were much less reliable than my sig), such as double-feeds, light strikes (clicks instead of bangs), mags falling out, stove pipes, slide not staying back after mag was emptied, slide not returning into battery, slide falling off, etc. etc... Given that glocks and sigs are known as some of the most reliable semi-autos in the world today, this makes me wonder...

All my guns were purchased brand new, and problems occurred well after the 200-round break-in period. All of these problems were when factory mags (in good condition) and factory ammo (FMJs mostly) were used. I'm pretty pedantic and OC about my ammo and examine every single round I feed thru my guns (I always examine primers for damage and proper seating, proper bullet seating depth and orientation, and structural integrity of the case). Every pistol was thoroughly cleaned after each trip to the range. Cleaning, storage, and maintenance has always been strictly by the book, following guidelines for the type and method of applying the cleaning products (but, I'm no armorer, mind you). I have had extensive pistol training, so I would not attribute these issues to user error (although, human factor is always a possible reason for problems). Finally, I wasn't putting my semi-auto thru extreme duress like thousands of rounds fired during training session without cleaning, or using them after rolling in the mud, or extreme temperatures -- just plain jane moderately-paced shooting practice two handed or one handed on our oudtoor range...

So, what's the deal? Why is it difficult to manufacture a semi-auto pistol that just works given relatively competent operation and maintenance of the said semi-auto pistol? I would be more than happy to pay big $$ for one, and I'm sure many people (and gov. agencies) would, too.

And, yes, many of you might say, that today's semi-autos are better (often MUCH better) than what they used to be. True! But, I'm still not satisfied with the reliability level of today's pistols. Call me picky or unreasonable, but I need my SD/HD/CCW pistol to function 99.99 percent (I'll be cool with one quick-to-remedy malfunction out of every 10,000 rounds fired, but no more than that). My smartphone, my toaster, my car, my fridge, my computer, my faucet, my light switch, my microwave work with that (or greater) reliability -- why can't a life-saving device, such as a semi-auto pistol? Again, today's semi-auto pistols are pretty reliable, but just not "bet-your-life" reliable that I want them to be.

Why? Any thoughts?
 
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a semi auto is simply a less reliable design than a revolver. period. now with that said there are reliable semi autos available. did you get a new Glock for the generation it was? because they need time to work out all the bugs when they come out with something new. was the glock modded? glocks are probably the most reliable pistols on the market, with sig and h&k. i had a jam with a glock once, not sure why but it happened. maybe bad ammo, idk. but it happened. my grandpa took it to the range another day and said that it performed just fine. cleaned it for me. semi autos simply aren't as reliable as revolvers. but they're close
 
I do hope you feel better.Seriously,you raise some very valid,legitament points.I'm sure we'll all have an interesting discussion.But maybe I'll just continue to carry my revolvers. :D
 
Nope, no modifications other than sights. G19 was 4th gen and purchased after all kinks were worked out by the manufacturer... G29 was 3rd gen purchased 2 years ago -- way past having initial problems. P226 was brand new, purchased 2 years ago, and I'm not aware of this model having any reliability issues recently...
 
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Ahhh.... The "revolver guys"... :)

Just kiddin'! I dig revolver design, but from what I hear it ain't the ticket either, since many malfunctions, when induced, can't easily/quickly be corrected. But I gotta admit the revolver definitely has many pluses -- ability to reliably use all sorts of bullet designs and loads, no limp-wristing concerns, no slides going-out of battery, etc.
 
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Autos have more potential for problems because there are two "X" factors. The first is ammo, the second is the magazine. Revolvers can, of course have ammo problems (misfires) but not in the feeding and extraction/ejection cycle where many auto problems occur. It is surprising how many people will buy an expensive pistol, consulting everyone around for the best, then buy the cheapest ammo they can find. Many folks will practice with cheap ammo (nothing wrong with that), and never fire the "high price spread". If they need the gun, they could find that it worked fine with the cheap stuff, but won't work with the expensive ammo.

Many problems can be caused by magazines, and the magazine is a critical part of the gun, not an afterthought to be purchased cheap.

So I strongly recommend that anyone choosing a handgun for serious purposes fire at least 200 rounds of the carry ammo from EACH carry magazine. If there is a failure, start over when the problem is believed to be corrected.

Jim
 
Revolvers are more reliable in the fact that they do not have to worry about feeding and extracting... But they do have parts that can fail, and unique issues the design can have problems with, like timing issues. Cylinder lock from a primer that backs out after firing or the recoil of other shots, can and does happen. I have experienced it myself.



As for semi-autos...


Magazines falling out are a sign of wear or user error...

Occasional light strikes can be attributed to the ammo... regular light strikes with multiple brands is a problem with the pistol though.

Feeding issues are almost always magazine related.

Extraction issues are usually traceable to the extractor.

Ejection can be the extractor or ejector.

Tolerance stacking of parts can lead to some pistols having problems... usually this can be corrected.


So on the whole, a modern semi auto pistol, when properly maintained, can be expected to have a function rate of 99.99% easy.



Out of my semis... I have a function rate of 99.99% or better in all of them.


I had one stovepipe with my M&P when using some remanufactured ammo, back just before 9mm was easier to get. It was also within the first few hundred rounds. I blame the ammo for that malfunction. I have well over a 1000rds through it since, and not a single hiccup.

My Sig 226 has at least 1000rds through it, and not one single malfunction.

My CZ 75 in 9mm has a few thousand rounds through it, and not a single malfunction.

My CZ 75 in 40 had a single failure to extract on some old reloads my friend had sitting around in his house for several years, they were loaded on the hot side. Other than that, it has not had any problems it about 1000rds.

Other pistols I have, that have had not a single problem, and that have at least a few hundred rounds through or more... all are less than a year old, so round count is lower.

Glock 19
M&P9c
M&P Shield 9
Sig 320

My recent acquisition last weekend, of a Springfield 1911 and H&K VP9, I have only put 150rds through them each, but not a single malfunction with either.


Heck... Even my Ruger SR22 and MkIII has functioned perfectly, minus dud rounds in some bulk ammo on occasion. 22 pistols can be finicky sometimes, but mine have been fine.


Other than random parts issues from the factory, magazine problems, or wear and tear... User error or user induced, is a main cause of failures.

The funny thing is... those who are "meticulous" can be the ones who have the most issues. Why?... I don't know... Its not all of them, but a few do for some reason. Maybe their particular brand of meticulous just does not agree with the firearms.


For the initial trip to the range with a new firearm, I tend to lube a little heavy before going, and then clean afterwards, which is usually a couple hundred rounds. After that, I don't clean my pistols until they have a few hundred rounds through them at least... Sometimes I have to force myself to clean them, because its been several months since the last cleaning.

And I still have the success rate I do.
 
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My experiences have been vastly different than yours OP. I have not had a single failure with ANY of my center fire semi auto pistols that include SIGs, HKs, and Walther PPQ through several thousand rounds fired. Even my SIG SP2022 has been trouble free with over 3000 rounds fired. One of my P226s also has close to 4000 rounds fired with no issue. I only use quality factory made brass cased ammo for range use such as Brass Blazer, PMC, Federal American Eagle, Speer Lawman, or Winchester Ranger.

Maybe you want to try an HK??

Here are endurance tests by Todd Green for the P30 and HK45.

http://pistol-training.com/archives/2668

91,322 rounds
13 stoppages, 0 malfunctions, 5 parts breakages

http://pistol-training.com/archives/4027

50,000 rounds
1 stoppages, 1 (*) malfunctions, 1 parts breakages

Or maybe a Beretta 92/M9??

http://www.beretta.com/en-us/the-beretta-m9/

"We have test-fired approximately 10 million rounds through our M9 pistols, averaging only one malfunction every 21,500 rounds."
 
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Your cellphone, toaster, microwave, computer, etc. Might not seem so reliable if every time you turned it on it got a different brand/batch of electricity from a different maker.

Your high end car won't run perfectly on crappy gasoline, either.

And what is too crappy to work right in one gun might be fine in another. Or even in the same gun with a different serial number.

Auto pistols are a multi-factor balancing act. Adding even further complexity is the fact that the maker has no control of what you shoot in it.

And then there is the fact that I hear many people saying that QA/QC simply isn't as good as it used to be.

I can't say. I have no Glock or any polymer frame guns. I have one Sig, bought new in 1980. My most recent "new in the box" semi auto was bought in 1990. Have gotten many since, but all were made before then or were used, or both. The guns made 25+ years ago still work fine for me, so I have not needed to test any of the new/current production.

Or maybe you're just one of those unlucky people that always get the lemon. I can't say.
 
Interesting -

I have 10,000 rounds through my Glock 17 Gen 4 and 6,000 rounds through my Glock 30 Gen 4 with absolutely no issues, failure to feed, failure to fire or jam issues. Glock is perfection.
 
But, I'm still not satisfied with the reliability level of today's pistols. Call me picky or unreasonable, but I need my SD/HD/CCW pistol to function 99.99 percent (I'll be cool with one quick-to-remedy malfunction out of every 10,000 rounds fired, but no more than that). My smartphone, my toaster, my car, my fridge, my computer, my faucet, my light switch, my microwave work with that (or greater) reliability -- why can't a life-saving device, such as a semi-auto pistol? Again, today's semi-auto pistols are pretty reliable, but just not "bet-your-life" reliable that I want them to be.
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My phone drops calls, has an app freeze, or needs a restart every week or so, and that's with multiple phones. My computer needs a restart every so often too. My toaster, my faucet, and my light switch are all simpler than a semiautomatic pistol. None of those devices in my experience work 99.99% of the time. In fact my semiautomatics have been more reliable than a number of household items. Any pistol shot extensively enough or under adverse conditions will fail.

I've owned 70+ semiautomatic handguns and shoot ~ 8000 rds of pistol a year. I would argue that it's harder to find an unreliable current production pistol in a gun store than a reliable one. That said, malfunctions happen. That's why any good pistol training will cover malfunction clearances ad nauseum, it's vital. Until we have phasers from Star Trek, I know of no device that can meet the requirements you've specified once accounting for manufacturing variances.
 
OK flame me later- I have a Tarus PT1911 in a 45 ACP. Over 6000 rounds ( all hand loads). One Stove pipe and I blame that on me. It is the only pistol I own, so can't say about others.
 
Mine are very reliable . They are Rugers . The P89 does not like limp wristing but other than that no problems .
 
I haven't had any problems with my auto loading pistols. I cleaned my G19 when I first got it and have never cleaned it since. Shot probably 700 rds with 0 malfunctions. Using cheap ammo. My sig 227 probably has 200 flawless rounds thru it. And my S&W shield has had 2 stovepipes in 500 rds. Which I attribute those malfunctions to me not being use to high power hp rounds out of a small gun. Heck even my 1911s and beretta are flawless too. Guess I'm lucky. Hopefully you'll get your guns running better.
 
It's been my impression that there are maybe many hundreds if not 1,000s of handgun products out there, and that each time a manufacturer brings out a new model they seem compelled to change a good number of the parts. So, I don't think that contributes to reliability much.

On the other hand, I would have to say that my experience with the 10 or so handguns I own, by far most malfunctions have been due directly to issues with my handloads. There are 2 exceptions that come to mind--a Smith Model 41 that will probably never shoot reliably, and my G29 that won't shoot reliably using magazines that it wasn't designed to operate with :D.

I do find that magazines, in general, are my No 1 problem with all auto pistols I have. I doubt I have a more than one or two handguns having magazines that I can actually get the maximum number of rounds in or that function when I do. Those would be the Glock G29 and my MP45c. I'll have to do a survey sometime--but conservatively I'd say the percentage of magazines I have for any gun that will load the rated number of rounds and function is maybe 30%.
 
Sig M11A1 have two
Sig P220
Glock 19
Glock 21
Zero malfunctions
SW M&P 9mm full size
One stovepipe less than 50 rounds, I think my son limp wristed it.
No malfunctions next 250 rounds.
All purchased new.
 
I have only had two pistol that ever had any problems, a SCCY, which had many major issues and a sd9ve, who's only issue was the last round in magazine going up at too steep of an angle. that being said, all my other autoloaders have been 100% reliable unless you take into account improper ammo type being used. as a reloader, I like to play with lots of different weight and profiles. semi-auto's with very steep feed ramps generally will have issues with large meplats or very wide opening hollow-points. I don't see this as strike against a gun's "reliability", just as a limitation to it's design. generally, the smaller the semi-auto, the steeper the ramps have to be and the more "picky" it will be about ammo choice, not something to worry about in a wheel-gun of course. I have never owned a glock, but I shoot them regularly, and although I don't care for them much, they usually do well with any ammo I try. these are full-size glocks, they haven't been picky(with my limited experience). I have a shield and a pt111, 9mm, that both will not feed sierra 90gr sportsmaster hollow-points(meant for a .380) 100% of the time or some of my flat nosed .358's downsized to 9mm......does this mean these guns have a reliability issue when they will shoot pointier or round bullets 100% reliable? I don't see it like that, I see it like that is what it was designed to do, be very small and have to use more standard profile bullets. my stepfather has a berretta 92 and I have a CZ and a Tri-Star, these three guns(large guns) have shot any kind of ammo I have ever made 100% reliably. my Tri-Star has somewhere between 6 and 8 thousand rounds through it, dozens of different weights/profiles(many of which are not even designed for 9mm), and has NEVER had ANY kind malfunction. that is a "new" gun copying an old design. it doesn't have the hurdles to jump through that a pocket pistol does. all in all, excluding the two first mention guns(one with a magazines issue and one that was a piece of junk entirely), every semi-auto that I have owned(or used at length) have been 100% if you stay within it's designed limitations. .
 
You don't say if you're shooting factory ammo or reloads (who's reloads?).

I dunno, I've fired countless tens of thousands of rounds (all factory) through a variety of semi-autos over the years, and I've had a few stovepipes on two guns (both Sigs), and a few double feeds on one gun (one of the Sigs that has stovepiped), but never had any of the other issues you've mentioned. One of the Sigs that very rarely stovepipes is a P226 in .357 Sig, and if it does it's operator error (limp wristing). The other that used to have issues is a P210, but once I took the thing completely apart and cleaned out the factory packing grease from the hammer mechanism and re-lubed it properly, it's been flawless.

So maybe you're unlucky, I don't know, but my experience is, modern semi-autos are indeed extremely reliable. And revolvers are very simple to use, but pretty damn complicated inside, so I'm not sure I'd automatically say that revolvers are always more reliable.
 
a semi auto is simply a less reliable design than a revolver. period.
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That is about as false as it gets. I had a S&W 642 that I carried in the back of my cycling jersey, somehow my sweat had turned the lithium grease on the inside into paste, and it would only fire once, until I detail stripped it down and completely scrubbed the internals. Not the easiest task with a revolver.

The following season I did the same with a Glock 26. No such issues.

When a revolver fails, unless it is a light primer strike, there is no immediate action to solve the problem. Not so with an auto.

It sounds like the OP has had some bad luck with autos. Anyone who makes the kind of claim that they "will not trust a pistol unless it is 100% reliable" is flirting with disaster. Train yourself to overcome a malfunction so WHEN it does happen your hands will take over and you'll be back in the fight as fast as possible.
 
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