Why aren't combo longguns more popular for hunting?

U

Unlicensed Dremel

Moderator
There's a thread in bolts/pumps/levers re: "Why aren't pump rifles more popular for hunting?".

OK, so why aren't combo guns more popular? I'm a big fan and have had several.

While I only have one left (Savage 24 in .22 mag & 20 ga 3.0"), it's so incredibly versatile that it has more niches /uses than any other gun. It is scoped with a low power variable (1-4x20).

I mean, I have a fair number of guns, and used to have a lot more, and regardless, even considering back when I had a lot, this gun (or other combo) beats all others for:

1. Squirrel & rabbit gun. Shotgun "always" while walking; flip to rimfire on hammer selector if critter stops cold more than 30 yards out.

2. Fall Turkey gun. In many states like mine, there is a fall turkey season where a gun can be used. Some counties, it's still shotgun-only, like spring season, but most counties, you can use a rifle or shotgun, your choice.

3. Coyote gun in the woods / brush, especially in team calling where you are the shooter, and a friend behind you calling. No. 1 buck to No. 4 buck for trotting up close; flip to .22 mag head shot for stopped.

4. Subsistence survival - well what could be better? .22 mag shotshells even for little bitty birds and mice and such, not to mention everything from there to full-bore forster slugs.

5. Pig hunting on public land. Some WMAs here have a rule (though not all of them) that if hunting pigs outside of deer gun season, you can only use a weapon that is legal for another species in season at the time. So if you're hunting pigs during squirrel or rabbit season, you an only use rimfire or shotgun - BB or smaller. So, .22 mag to the base of ear. Or 20 ga slug. Yeah, I know that'd be illegal because it's not BB or smaller... but the reason for this very very stupid rule is to slow down deer poachers. So if you haul out a pig (not a deer) and admit that you used a 20 ga slug, the warden will give you a high five and look the other way. So if the good guys break the rule, no harm no foul, as I see it. If the warden wants to give me a ticket for possessing a slug because he doesn't believe I'm pig hunting, meh - ok, I'll pay it.

6. Overlapping seasons including wing-shooting: Squirrel / pheasant, squirrel / quail (and when I used to have a 12 ga / .223 rem, deer/quail , deer/pheasant). This use is why the scope is a true 1.0x bottom, not 1.25 or 1.5x. Although admittedly, I probably couldn't hit anything on the wing, having not practiced with it. But if I practiced, bet I could - it has long eye relief and huge exit pupil on 1x, so easy to get "on target".

So, most of my guns have two designated uses. Some have one use and a few have three uses. Only 1 gun has has "four or more" uses - this one - and it happens to have six - impressive. Although, in fairness, there are ALSO other guns which I have or plan to get, which have overlapping coverage on some of these uses (like .223 rem turnbolt for yotes and long-range fall turkeys, plain old .22lr rimfire for squirrel & rabbit, suppressed centerfire subsonic SBR rifle for subsistence survival big-game hunting, etc.)
 
To build a really good one is expensive. You can find some European made drillings with 2 shotgun barrels and 1 rifle barrel underneath which are high quality. You could buy several quality rifles and shotguns for the same money though.

All of the combo guns I've dealt with are cheap budget guns with inaccurate rifle barrels. Not many folks want to hunt with a single shot anything, especially a shotgun.

To me they are neither fish nor fowl. You end up with a poor rifle and a poor shotgun all in the same package instead of one good rifle and a separate good shotgun.
 
Well, maybe that's it - be it reality or perception.

Let's look at those...

All of the combo guns I've dealt with are cheap budget guns with inaccurate rifle barrels.
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If that's true, then that's *definitely* a great reason not to like them. Are you sure this is a true statement across the board? Now I'm inspired to go out and really test my Savage. My experience thus far is that it's reasonably accurate, but never really "wrung it out" at say, 100 yards or more. I just test it at 50 or 60 yards to make sure it's sighted. I'm just not so sure this is true, and hey, the Savage is cheap - well the old ones were cheap were, until they became discontinued. Point being, if Savage can make a good rifle cheap (if they are), then others can too.


Not many folks want to hunt with a single shot anything,
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True, but that's where many people go wrong - in a rifle, one shot, one kill - that should be the mindset.

especially a shotgun.
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Well, yeah. One shot, one kill is slightly less applicable for wingshooting (or on-the-run shooting), but the concept is still applicable. How many first-shot hits have you made on a duck or upland games, versus a hit on the same bird on the 2nd or 3rd shot? The reality is, 90% + hits are with that first shot or not at all.

To me they are neither fish nor fowl. You end up with a poor rifle and a poor shotgun all in the same package
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If that's true, it's a good reason - whether it's a poor rifle or not depends solely upon that accuracy issue (becuause they're otherwise a great rifle - light, short, etc., and single shot is not an issue, or shouldn't be). Whether it's a poor shotgun or not - well, admittedly, yes, to some extent - a 2nd or 3rd shot is definitely more important with shotgun than rifle, so there's that. But for some of these uses, like the public land pig hunting, fall turkey gun, subsistence survival gun, etc., the multiple shot of the shotgun just isn't needed, so it's only a *con* of the gun for the "overlapping seasons" use where upland game or waterfowl are on the menu.

instead of one good rifle and a separate good shotgun.
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Right. But that's the whole point of why they should be more popular. You're not actually going to carry two guns - are ya? So all six of the uses depend entirely upon the combo ability, which bodes in favor of the combo guns.

As for expensive euro combos and drillings - sure, you bet - perfectly understandable why *those* aren't more popular - $6K to $10K (on the low end) is way too much to spend for most people. But as for a good, functional, under $1K one - I don't get it. If Savage could do it back then, why can't they do it now. Well I guess they do have the new plasticy version of the 24, but ugh, no way. I understand why the Baikals aren't more popular because they're very heavy, very stiff, and have a poor scope mount and triggers.

As for regulating, that's not an issue - double rifles have to be regulated; combo guns do not (except just roughly / crudely) - you sight them in for he rifle, and the shotgun is gonna be plenty "close enough" for the 30 yards that it's used for. You see, *regulating* barrels to the same point of impact is by far the primary factor in making them so expensive, and since you don't have to do this in combo guns, you can make them cheap, like Savage has and does. Not many people accuse Savage barrels of being inaccurate. I'm not prepared to say that that's false with respect to their 24-style guns, but it needs further investigation.

So, in the case of the Baikals, it's easy to see why they're not more popular - as I said, heavy, stiff, etc. In the case of the Savages in the last 20 years, it's at least *partially* understandable why they're not more popular since they offer ONLY rimfire combos now; not centerfires like they used to. But that's kind of chicken-&-egg. Surely they dropped the .30-30 win, .222 rem, etc., combos precisely because sales were falling off, so the lack of popularity preceded the lack of centerfire chamberings. Now maybe it's also partially because of the lack of 12 ga offerings, since 12 ga is so much more popular than 20 ga.

So it's not the actual utility, I don't think - it's the *perceived* utility.

I think first and foremost, it's our obsession is semi-autos and other repeaters - our misplaced reliance on firepower in hunting scenarios.

Secondarily, it's probably due to the decreased prevalence of overlapping hunting seasons - it's just not legal to hunt more than once species most of the time, like it used to be.

Third, I think it's the obession with long range. Everyone talks about long-range this and long-range that, as if we all live in NV / UT / AZ / NM / WY, etc. when the vast majority of the population lives and hunts in densely wooded areas, where you don't need an uber-accurate, heavy bolt rifle to make a 1K yard shot on a coyote.

But other factors might be things like: -the uber butt-ugliness of the new Savage 24 style guns, -lack of good quality low-priced imports exemplified by the Baikal-fail, -*possibly*, the lack of accuracy of the rifle barrel in these, as you describe (not sure), -lack of centerfire and/or 12 ga offerings in the Savages. Or for that matter, lack of BETTER centerfire offerings. I mean, .222 rem and .30-30 just aren't as popular anymore. So Savage, why not try .223? What else were they offered in - .357 mag? What is Savage offering them in now? I don't even know....

Oh, and I suppose another reason is just the relative rarity of people actual using them for those uses (besides already noting fewer overlapping seasons)- I mean, no one really actually uses subsistence survival guns outside of maybe tiny parts of Appalachia, let's say. However, a countervailing point here is that predator hunting is MUCH more popular now than 20 years ago, and there's a lot to be said for combo gun for yotes/bobcat in the config of shotgun with #1 buck, and a centerfire like .22 hornet or .223 rem, espec. in wooded areas where most people hunt, in case they pop out trotting 5 or 10 yards away, from behind brush. And of course, the "public land pig hunting" problem is a rare esoteric one for most people, as another example.

Also note that in post-apocalyptic subsistence survival scenarios, however far-fetched - in that WROL case, game laws don't matter, so you'd be pot-shooting waterfowl and such on the ground or water - 1 shot is all it takes there.

Having said all that, maybe they are getting more popular - didn't Chiappa just come out with some variety? But these too might fall into the category of junky / inaccurate.
 
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The over and under shotgun-rifle combo seems like a neat idea.
But,
Not actually knowing which of a rifle or shotgun will be needed, when going hunting for the day, is probably not all that realistic.
If a single shot weapon is desired, the off chance of needing either/or probably doesn't warrant carrying the extra weight of a two barrel gun, all day.
I once had such a combo, and it was plenty accurate for the intended purpose.
Just never used it as much as I imagined.
Now if one were out hunting rabbits and ran into a big, nasty bear...........
 
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I think Dremmel underestimates the effect of lack of regulation on the Savage O/U combos. Yes, you can get your rifle sighted in with those iron sights but on many, the shotgun will be so far off as to be almost unusable. I had a Savage .22Hornet/12ga combo that I picked up for Florida turkey hunting (where rifles are legal). I had to mount a scope for the rifle with a see-thru mount so that I could use the irons for the shotgun. Even then, I had to change out the front sight for a taller one just to get it "close".
 
To me they are neither fish nor fowl. You end up with a poor rifle and a poor shotgun all in the same package
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I think this has a lot to do with it... Jack of All Trades, Master of None.

As just one example, it's going to be much heavier than a single shot rifle (or shotgun) and it's going to lack the features (like follow-up shots) that a dedicated gun of either flavor would have for the same weight.
 
I've had a Savage .22LR/20 Ga and a .357 mag/20 ga. The chokes were full, the first way too full for upland birds. The guns were also quite heavy, because shotgun barrels were thick-walled.

Sights were crude on both and the guns were quite heavy and slow to cock on flushing birds.

Waterfowl regulations don't permit rifles to be used, so wardens may not believe that you didn't have any rifle ammo with you. A single-shot is a disadvantage when hunting most birds.

Having to cock a shotgun before firing at a flushing bird is a big problem. Add to that, having to switch firing pins and it's a huge disadvantage.

I kind of enjoyed using them, but it got old having only one rifle shot and one shotgun shot.
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I kinda compare having a rifle/shotgun, external-hammer gun to carrying a shotgun and a handgun, which in my younger days, I used to do sometimes, until I realized that I could carry different shotgun loads to do pretty much what I needed to do with the a .22LR and iron sights, whether shotgun was my semi-auto or O/U. When hunting deer, etc. with a scoped rifle, I also determined that I could shoot small game with deer ammo, as long as I could make head shots. Extra ammo carries way better than a second gun or a Savage O/U.

Some of the hammerless O/U rifle-shotguns look attractive, but I've resisted buying one, like I've resisted drillings, though I admit they're sexxxxy.
 
There is also the legality problem. Turkey can only be hunted with shotguns, bows or muzzle loaders here. A combo gun with a shotgun barrel and rifle barrel would be illegal.

Same problem during small game and deer seasons depending on the choice of calibers. Rimfire rifles are not legal for deer, so a shotgun/22 RF would be illegal during deer season, but fine during small game season. A shotgun/centerfire might be legal during deer season, but would be illegal during small game season.
 
I think it is a combination of two factors.
Game law in many states does not allow a rifle in the woods outside of deer season or some such regulation.
Minimum long gun licensing. In Europe where Drillings, etc. are popular, many countries restrict the number of firearms you may own. We don't, so we can tailor our guns to the season.
 
Interesting.... so regulation may play a part after all - thank you Doyle. As well as over- or under- choked (lack of interchangeable chokes), and yep, good call - being limited in number of guns you can own bodes in favor of drillings or combos in Europe, I'm sure. Thanks all - good discussion. Seems like "lack of good options / quality / regulation" is a significant part of it after all. Maybe if Obama gets his way and we can only have one (long) gun, they will surge again - let's hope not.
 
Drillings, as those combination guns were dubbed in Europe upon their beginning, were never as accurate with the rifle barrel as even poor quality bolt action rifles. I don't think they're any different these days.

That aside, for sub 100 yard use against big game as well as wildfowl, they are indeed the cat's pajamas for lots of folks. And they do well in that discipline.
 
Someone asked about these type rifles a while ago.. I think for a "survival rifle" set-up. I got curious and tried some Google-Fu to see what kind of offerings were out there.

The most interesting ones I found were from some German company. I don't even know if you can get them in the states... but they were sure cool looking and the lower barrel is a pump-repeating with magazine. So, you can load.. say.. a single 12 gauge shotgun slug up top and a 5 round .03-06 on the bottom. Or they have rimfire/centerfire combos too.

Look expensive though. Think its the hybrid model.

http://www.innogun.de/en/rifles/hybrid.html

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/03/18/innoguns-hybrid-pump-action-single-shot-double-rifle/
 
The older drillings are very nice guns. But also very pricy. Much more than I would spend for something to knock around in the woods with.

If someone came out with one that actually looked decent (the Savage 24 just looks ugly to me) and in some popular caliber choices .. say 30/30 over 20 ga.. 223 over 20.. 308 over 12 etc Id buy one for a all around toter.
 
I think a 17HMR over a 12ga would be a great food getter!

If I was going to go with a 3 barrel drilling it would be a 22LR, 30-06 (or 308) and 12 ga.
 
I wanted a Savage combo gun so bad when I was a kid but Dad didn't think they were worth the expense. After I got some income of my own, the draw was less and I was more interested in SxS bird guns.
 
My biggest problem with the older Savages, much as I hate to agree with Brian :p is that they were too heavy/cumbersome feeling. I LOVE the concept, but just haven't found one that feels right...
 
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