Why Aren't 8 Shots Enough?

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I think the Garand was the wonder weapon of it's day and is still an awesome rifle. With some practice it can be reloaded very quickly. But with today's modern weapons why limit yourself to 8-10 rnds. True, in a SD situation, if you need more than 10 rounds you are in a world of Do-Do and more probably won't help. But in a SHTF situation it is my opinion that you will want/need all you can carry and hi-cap mags are the easiest way to accomplish it. JMO
My SKS will accept AK mags by the way and is a very capable weapon. I would much rather have it in my hands than a long hi-cap shotgun.
 
I would not dismiss any rifle. But I do have preferences.

I think an 8 round capacity in a 12 gauge shotgun is accepted because that's about all one is going to get in a practical package. Any magazine more than that requires heavy, large boxes or drums that most guys find objectionable to carry and use. Also bear in mind that each round of shotgun ammo unleashes multiple projectiles (except for slugs, of course). Eight rounds of 00 buck dispenses 72 projectiles. I think in most situations 8 rounds will solve the problem unless one is in combat on the battlefield. In that case, call in armor support and an air strike. :D
 
Because most people seem to think that they are going to be attacked by a whole mechanized infantry division when they plan out their home defense plan.

If you can't protect yourself with 8 shots, you are either going to be out gunned and lose anyway, or you'll have a hard job explaining the situation in court.

Just like the need to protect your property from a masked gun man 300yards away. Since when do armed burglars start their heist by laying down suppressive fire from 300yards away.
 
Simply put ... I would always prefer to find that at the end of a "situation" I still have rounds in my magazine. While reloading is always an option ... it's an option I would rather not be forced to exercise.

Comments about being "... attacked by a whole mechanized infantry division" and "... if you can't protect yourself with 8 shots ..." make for pithy and smart comments, but don't reflect the reality that I, as the intended victim, intend to dictate what I am armed with for my defense and the magazine capacity available to me.

While a multiple person home invasion is unlikely, having an AR15 with a reliable 30 round (or 40 round) magazine and facing only a single threat means that you are likely to have unfired ammo in your magazine at the end of the "situation".

"Remember, nobody ever complained about having carried too much ammo after a firefight!"

PS ... I fired my first M1 Garand as a Junior ROTC Cadet in 1961, trained with an M14 in 1967 and went to combat with an M16A1 in 1968 ... and I loved all three of them for different reasons.
 
I think that a good deal of the issue comes from shotgun mythology.

1. You can't miss
2. It has ultimate stopping power
3. For pump guns, the racking will scare away the bad guy
4. They don't overpenetrate compared to other guns.

Here's a good take:

http://www.krtraining.com/KRTraining/Classes/deflonggun.html

I've trained with both and shoot both - I go for the AR if it gets to that level of intensity.

Many of the responses we used to get about the issue were racking and posturing, without aiming as the major reasons for shottie popularity.
 
Until the situation happens, how do you know how many rounds is enough ?


Even, then less might have been enough, or you may be dead and however many you had wasn't enough.

Since you have no idea how many rounds IS enough, more is better. I would rather fire one round to resolve the situation and have 29 left in the magazine, than fire 8 and realize that wasn't enough. That being said, 30 might not be enough. There is absolutely no possible way to know how many is enough until the actual situation is over and analized.

For that matter, for the vast majority of people, zero is enough. They will never be in a situation to need any.


One more additional comment: the shotgun MAY not have ultimate power, but it comes about as close as anything you might own to having ultimate power. Based on my personal experience of treating people who have been shot: I would put my faith in a shotgun.
 
I think 8 to 10 in a Pump Shotgun is optimal because You can top it off as You go, but You can not single top the M1 Garand, or the Sks as efficiently as with the Shotgun during a high stress situation. Just My thoughts on the subject.
 
I don't see any problem using an SKS or a Garand for the job. They are great rifles and few can deny that. They are, however, extremely heavy.
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It's funny how a 9 lb. M1 Garand is so much heavier than a 9 lb. AR-15 with tactical doo-dads. ;)
 
Fish bed has a point there. The other issue is length of course. A garand is a pretty lengthy piece to be swinging around corners inside a house. Some shotguns are better for that. A pistol of course is even better but with a serious firepower tradeoff.
 
Some of us live in the country and it may take 45 minutes before the cavalry arrives. Sometimes 30 rounds aren't enough. Quick reloads are easy when the clip/mag is in your hand or in a quick holster as in a competition rig. In a firefight you will have to pull reload from a pouch then reload under fire. A few more steps then the controlled environment on the range.

There is a reason the police carry AR-15s in their cars with 30 round mags. They are going after those really bad guys. You know, the ones that are breakin' into folks homes.

As a combat veteran, I do know that I feel better with more firepower than needed than less when pinned down under fire.

I do believe that 10 is enough as long as you do have a setup that enables you to grab those clips quickly. But, 30 is better.

EIGHTYDUECE ON THE LOOSE!
 
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You people who don't think a Garand would work, go watch an infantry match.

I've seen some pretty impressive shooting. You start at the 600 yard line and have 50 seconds to get as many "Hits" as possible. Two targets, its nothing to see guys get off 24 rounds out of a Garand in that time limit and with decent hits. That's after a two mile run., then they move to 500 and do it again, then at 300 & 200.
 
How about because as a civilian I could possibly face the same threat or threats the police could face so then I ask you why do police need AR-15s with multiple 30round magizines? Is my life as a civilian not worth as much as a police officers? The police are not first responders you are the first responder.
 
Contrary to the hype you hear, you can miss with a shotgun, quite easily I might add.

The shot doesn't scatter that much, especially not at typical self defense ranges.
 
I'm not a Veteran.Late 60's I had the great fortune of being a training aide for an Army ROTC outfit in Northern Colorado.Our cadre officer was a RANGER,had been a platoon leader 1st Infantry.Michelin's rubber trees.I carried an M-1 pretty far.It was our job to be the guerrilla.

In the dark,infiltrating,sneaky pete stuff,under barbed wire,through bushes,being low,the M-1 was a lot nicer to crawl and slither with.Protruding box magazines can be awkward.And,you can shoot with your head and belly sucked lower into the ground.

Those old horned toads with Garands are dangerous.When they run out of bullets,they put bayonets on them.
 
M1Rifle30-06
Why Aren't 8 Shots Enough?
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Man, I absolutely hate drive-bys, when someone posts a comment on controversial subject, sit back (for 3 days), and watch the do-do fly. Kinda like yelling fire in a theater, eh?

The proper answer is - It depends on your situation. 8 rounds for WHAT? Hell, in some situations, a long gun isn't even the right choice! :rolleyes:
 
At 3 am stumbling around the house in my underwear, having the clips for a Garand stuffed into my G-string kinda hurts. ;-)

Doubt anyone is going to fast reload in their house at 3am, who really has reloads and hand even?

But what do I know. I'm so old I think pistol gripped shotguns and HiPowers are still useable. I'd say use what you prefer and are comfortable and confident with for SD.

Beware the man with one gun...
 
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As to shotguns vs rifles.

I teach a weekly ladies firearm safety and self defense class.

Just after Uncle Joe came out with his "all you need is a double barreled shot gun" rant the ladies asked me about the shotgun and or rifle.

I wouldn't tell them, instead I brought a shot gun and rifle to the class and had them try them both.

EVERY lady in the class did better with the rifle. They didn't like shooting the shotgun because of recoil (and I was using light trap loads). This was an in door range so I couldn't use an AR but instead I let them shoot a Marlin 94 38/357. Now that its warming up I'll take them outside and let them try the AR.

What I did was had each woman measure their house, figuring the farthest distance they would shoot. Some had smaller homes so the spread of the shotguns wouldn't be a problem. A couple had larger homes and the spread would put others in danger even if they hit the bandit.

All had no problem getting good hits with the rifle at normal SD shooting in the home.

One scenario was to pretend that the bandit got one of their kids and held them as a hostage. I have a hostage target for them to shoot. NON had any problem hitting the bandit portion of the target with the rifle. You can guess what happened when it was attempted with a shotgun.

When you try to choose between a shotgun or rifle, instead of going by what's said on the internet, get one of each and go to the range and see for your self. Take measurements of you home and use that distance to set up your targets.

I like the M1/M14 but they are over kill for SD. AR, or carbine type rifles (Marlin/Henry Levers) are a different story altogether. Also the M1 Carbine, but they are getting hard to find at reasonable prices. AR's are fine, just look at how many more women and juniors have gotten into and are doing great in High Power Matches since the AR's replaced the M14/M1A's in those matches.

Before you buy a dedicated SD rifle/shotgun, go out and shot one, take your wife or who ever else may have to use it out and see if they can shoot it.

Most women don't like shotguns and face it, we may not be home and self defense may be left to the Misses.

Don't tell anyone what is the best SD rifle/pistol/shotgun for SD, we're all different. Give them a variety of choices, let them shoot them based on their situation and what they can shoot best.

An example, someone mentioned rural areas. I live in a rural area, I can shoot a long ways. I'd be perfectly happy and feel save with a bolt gun.

Come visit and watch me shoot a M1903A3 with stripper clips and then tell me its too slow. But not everyone practices rapid fire with a bolt gun and fewer yet use stripper clips. Having said that, I feel perfectly safe sticking to my J-frame. Not sure you can justify a 600 yard shot as self defense.
 
I may be biased, but I still just can't understand this.
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Gee, "M1Rifle30-06" why would you think that?

Why is 8 shots from a Garand (or 10 shots from an SKS or other 8-10 shot semi auto rifle) is considered sub-par for a "go-to" rifle by most people, but 6-8 shots from a much slower and higher recoiling 12 gauge pump action shotgun is considered optimal?
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Who are these "most people"? The VP? I don't personally know anyone who thinks that.

There's 30-06 and .308 loads that penetrate less than buckshot, cause massive tissue damage, and you get more range and a reliable semi automatic action, not to mention faster reload.
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Please show me the .308 loading that penetrates less than buckshot while causing more tissue damage and assuredly getting more range.

Granted, a Garand is a bit longer than a shotgun, but the point still stands.
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There are lots of shotguns longer than a Garand.
 
People keep talking about justifying long range shots. If you live in the country, it isn't always Joe-Blow McBadguy that is a threat to you and yours. Coyotes, wild pigs, feral dogs and the like all need shooting too. Waiting for some of those animals to come into "justifiable SD range" is ridiculous. Keeping a long gun for defense of the home and another for the fields is ridiculous too. If it's got thirty rounds of 5.56 or eight rounds of .30-06, either one will do fine.

You might even get by with a shotgun...
 
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Willie, I have defended my Home against two attacker with a .22 Rifle. I didnt have to fire it, but the presence of the Rifle caused the attackers to flee until the Police arrived and arrested them. Any Gun is better than no Gun. That was several Years ago but I often think of how bad it would have been if My Wife and I had not had that .22
 
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