Why are FFL holders trying to double charge?

S

Sling Shot

New member
Is it ignorance of the law? Or is it that they(FFL's) think I am ignorant of the law? I do not know, but I am getting dang tired of FFL's double charging me. I live in NC and I want to trade my rifle to a person that has a shotgun for trade and lives in Kentucky. I call FFL's to do a transfer, and they want me to pay them to transfer my rifle, and then in turn want to charge me again when the shotgun comes. That is not correct according to the ATF web site. I can legally ship a rifle, shotgun, or handgun interstate to a FFL. The handgun cannot be shipped through the US mail, but through a contract carrier such as UPS. So why in the hel* am I being double charged by FFL holders? I am posting a link to the ATF web site. It is their questions and answers FAQ. Take note of B3 and B8, and a licensee is a FFL holder, and a nonlicensee is a person without a FFL. I am sorry to rant and rave, but this is a problem that is getting out of hand. Sling Shot http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faqb.htm

[This message has been edited by Sling Shot (edited June 08, 2000).]
 
It's like this see...

You need the FFL to complete the sale, the FFL needs to eat dinner tonight and buy new shoes for his daughter.

The BATF only says you have to have the FFL complete the transfer, they do not say that the FFL cannot charge you for this service.

It's called capitalizm.



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~USP

"... I rejoice that America has resisted [The Stamp Act]. Three millions of people, so dead to all feelings of liberty as to voluntarily submit to being slaves, would have been fit instruments to make slaves of the rest of us." -- William Pitt, British Parliament, December 1765
 
USP45: I know that the FFL is needed to complete the sale, but we are talking about two different things. You did not address the double charge issue. Furthermore, I will pay for the service(another form of being taxed), but why should I pay for it twice? Please stay on topic!! Sling Shot
 
Sling Shot - I think that you may be confusing the terms "transfer" and "trade."

"Transfer" means sending one gun from one person to another person. If you are both using an FFL licensee, then an interstate "trade" between two parties requires two "transfers." One to get your gun to the other party, and one to get his gun to you.

You both get charged for each end of the transfer. One to ship, one to receive. Since there's two guns involved, you each get charged twice.

Again, this is assuming that you both use an FFL to ship and receive.


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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4 Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
 
TheBlues man: According to the ATF website B8 in the Q&A: A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his own State or to a licensee in any State. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. A nonlicensee may not transfer a handgun to a non licensed resident of another State.
Take note of B3 also. According to B8, I can mail or ship a shotgun or rifle to a licensee(FFL holder) interstate without having to go through an FFL holder in my own state. Therefore, that is the reason that I state that I am being double charged. A transfer fee when I ship, and secondly a transfer fee when I receive. Sling Shot
 
It depends on the rules in your state.
You do not need an ffl dealer to ship your rifle, but you need one to receive one.
For example, you can send your rifle directly(no middle man) to the purchaser's local dealer, once you get a copy of their ffl.
Regarding the shotgun, it must be sent to your local ffl once the owner of that shotgun gets a copy of your local ffl's license.
Any ffl dealer will charge a fee whenever he ships or receives any firearm.

My local dealer will only give his ffl copy to other dealers, not just regular citizens.
 
OK E_WOK. You are saying is all that I have to do is: Have my FFL send a copy of his FFL to the purchaser's FFL that is out of state, and then the purchaser's FFL send a copy of his FFL to my FFL, so that I can receive the shotgun. But I do not have to ship the shotgun directly through the FFL, but ship the rifle through UPS therefore avoiding paying my FFL twice. I hope I got that right. Sling Shot
 
You got it Sling Shot, and you're not alone in being confused about this. I think that the ATF intentionally tries to confuse people just to trip them up... job security. ;)

Notice that it doesn't explicity say whether you can ship a handgun to an out-of-state FFL or not. Only that you can't send it through the USPS. You can personally use the USPS to ship a long gun to an out of state FFL without going through an FFL on your end, if I'm interpreting this correctly.

Of course all of this is just my interpretation and doesn't count for much. YMMV and all that.

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RKBA!
"The people have the right to bear arms for their defense and security"
Ohio Constitution, Article I, Section 4 Concealed Carry is illegal in Ohio.
Ohioans for Concealed Carry Website
 
Slingshot, the reason for sending ffl licences is to make sure that you are not sending the gun to a bad guy.

Your ffl will charge you a small fee to receive the shotgun.

Don't send your rifle until you make sure that the address is a legitamit business.
 
Sling Shot, mail or ship your longgun to his FFL and have him mail or ship his longgun to your FFL. You pick up your new gun from your FFL and he goes to his FFL to pick up his. You well each pay your own FFL's a fee of about $10-$25. The FFL's do not have to send each other a license. The more work you do for yourself in a transfer the cheaper it will be, if you have the FFL do all the work you will pay for it. You will need to see a copy of the license or contact ATF to be certain that an FFL is issued and current at the address that you are about to ship to.
 
Dear sling shot
I am a FFL dealer. When some one brings me a gun to ship to another ffl dealer, I have to get a copy of the other ffl dealer's license and then I have to call batf to insure that the copy a have is not a phony counterfiet, made up on some ones computer printer, which is real easy to do.

I read an article of two 10th graders, who
copied a FFL dealers license from the BATF internet web site and filed in the blanks
with their printer and bought 30 handguns and these are 16 year old school kids.

So now , we need to look out for this.

Next, we take responsibility for your guns,
both ways, and so must ship them ourselves
pay shipping and insurance and for me ,this means closing up the gun shop and driving 20 miles to the UPS terminal and arguing with the UPS staff until I get their superior,
all very tiring, and driving back 20 miles.

So I loose about two hours doing this.
Then the paperwork of two transfers which , in my state takes about an hour per gun.
All you do is sign your name, but just try filing in all the blanks corectly, most customers cant get it right, even after several tries.I know, been there and seen that happen.So, if you want it done right, you have to do it yourself or stand over your customers shoulder & coach him as he fills it out.

So we have six hours labor to transfer two guns, worth about 80.oo plus shipping charges and state taxes.

I get 40.oo per gun + shipping + taxes.

I could make more money in almost any other job (it works out to 13.oo/hour) but I like
the firearms community and I fell that I am doing shooters a favor.

Since we are doing you a favor buy even remaining in the firearms business, not for the money, because it stinks,but because we like shooting....stop being such an ingrate.

See what kind of prices you get to pay if all us little dealers get disgusted and close up and leave you to the tender mercies of the big dealers, who will quickly start
charging recommended retail without our competition.And see if they would even be bothered to ship for you.

Instead, they might give you the S&W treatment.


REALITY CHECK 2000
I sent a 70.oo remote channel tuner with click box in for warantee repair and minimum charge was $45.00 + shipping.So it ended up costing me $55.oo For $15.oo more, I could have bought a brand new unit immediatly, from a store just down the block and not had to wait two months.

You shouldn't b!tch about minimum charge
agrevation charges.We only do it as a customer service because its bearly worth out time.
 
BATF doesn't say anything about what FFLs can charge for anything. The FFL can charge me for using his pen when I write him a check. The FFL can charge me every time he takes a gun out of the case for me to look at. The FFL can charge me to come into the store. He can do all this and more if he wants . . . of course he wouldn't get any business. Take your business somewhere else if you don't like the way the dealer charges for services.

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"Anyone feel like saluting the flag which the strutting ATF and FBI gleefully raised over the smoldering crematorium of Waco, back in April of ‘93?" -Vin Suprynowicz
 
Some of you understood my point exactly. Others are just rambling. I did not take anybody to raise, and if you want me to just give you my money -- do not hold your breath. It is just like some of the FFL holders in my home town, trying to double charge me the transfer fee when it is not necessary. Heck, I am quite capable of going to UPS and shipping a rifle myself, but I do know for me to receive a firearm, I will have to pay a transfer fee and go through the NCIS check which is fine and dandy. But for a FFL dealer to tell me that I have to ship my rifle through him is just plain wrong. I work for my pay check as just as hard as anybody else, and I am not in the business of giving it away. If I am going to be hammered on because I am trying to save money, then so be it because I do not care. The whole point of the matter is this: Why are FFL holders giving false information to make a buck off of John Doe? Heck, that is anybody's guess. Sling Shot
 
Oh, I think we all understood your point. You're right. Dealers should not be telling you lies to get your money. That's wrong.

But . . . maybe they're not telling you lies to get your money, but instead to protect themselves from the 02:30 knock at the door followed instantaneously by the select-fire pistol-calibre rifle aimed at their face, amid screams of "FEDERAL AGENT, DON'T MOVE, GET ON THE FLOOR NOW!" interspersed with unnecessary profanities.

I think that's more likely the case.

I was an FFL once, one of the dreaded "Kitchen Table" dealers. I think back on that and realize how stupid I was. It's a very risky business. It's a shame that fear of government prevents people from engaging in legitimate commerce.
 
ernest2,
What is the nature of this argument with the UPS staff? I am curious about it in light of recent information I have received on UPS. (WRT damage claims, loss, and other questionable issues)
 
Sling shot,

With most dealers, it is probably ignorance of the regulations and not dishonesty.

The whole picture is pretty muddy with the ATF agents themselves running around giving verbal interpretations that contradict the written regulations.

Bottom line is; You get the guy you are trading with to have his FFL send YOU a copy of his license. You then ship your rifle to the address on the license, using a contract carrier like UPS.

At the same time you have your FFL send a copy of his license directly to the guy you are trading with. He then ships his rifle to your FFL. You pay your FFL (1) transfer fee and you take the rifle home.

If it is any other way than that, either switch FFL's or you will have to bite the bullet.

If you are taking a rifle to YOUR FFL to have him ship it for you, heck yeah he should charge you. He is providing a service to you by handling the shipping. Skip the extra cost though, and ship it yourself.

BTW, I would have to see a little documentation to believe the tale about the two kids that bought 30 guns. Even if they were Jennings or Lorcins you are still talking $900 or more. Sounds like the tale is a little stretched, at best.
 
I visited the BATF site. As I understand it I could ship a rifle or shotgun to a FFL holder in another state for transfer to an individual in that state. I would not have to ship it through a FFL holder in my state. In the case of a handgun it wasn't clear to me if this would be the case or if I would have to ship from a FFL holder in my state. I guess I will call the BATF and ask the question --unless someone else will do it. Jerry

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Ecclesiastes 12:13  ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14  For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
 
JerryM you are exactly right and it works for longguns or handguns. I have bought guns this way before and sold one this way. On the sale I ran into the same type of dealer that Sling Shot has who did not know that an individual could send directly to a dealer (I guess they never buy from out of state individuals or auctions). I have a problem with someone operating a business where they don't know the law that governs them so make it up as it goes. A quick phone call to the regional BATF office had one of the compliance agents calling the dealer to 'splain things to him. The complaint may have triggered an audit of the dealer. Sling Shot, I also think that your dealer did not lie to you intentionally, I think he is stupid.
 
You're right Jeff.
I bought a pistol from a fellow TFL member about a month ago, and used the same procedure you just described. He didn't have to send a copy of his FFL holder to mine. But he did it out of courtesy, and sent the pistol by registered mail, not UPS.
My beef has been with NICS, not the shippers or shippees. :mad:


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...defend the 2nd., it protects us all.
No fate but what we make...
 
ffl charges

i reside in Tx and as i see it and how my man deals is this way: I can have him ship a handgun via uspo PRIORITY MAIL, HE FILLS OUT A FORM TO ALLOW THIS, for this service he charges $15.00 and then i pay shipping which on a handgun runs about another $15.00. ( tHIS OF COURSE HAPPENS AFTER HE RECEIVES A SIGNED COPY OF THE DEALER WHO WILL HANDLE THE TRANSFER FOR THE PERSON I'M DEALING WITH). When the gun from the person i traded with arrives at my FFL, i then am charged another $15.00 for transfer and for his time to call and verify that i'm not wanted or some kind of terrorist after i fill out the proper papers. So, what i'm say ing is, for about $45.00 its all legal and no hasle. Now, if i choose to mail the handgun myself through UPS OR FEDEX then, i still need a copy of the licencse of the person i'm shipping to PLUS at least here , i'm charged a MINIMUM of $45.00 on up to ship overnight, THEN + the same $15.00 for the transfer ofthe said gun from the oher person when it arrives. To me there is no question as to how i handle it, pay my dealer, give him the money and have no worries or, package the gun, drive to depot, argue AGAIN with a usually new counter help person on the legality of the transfer, then have the privalege of digging in to give them $45.00 or more ( last time was $70.84) To me, there is no question as to how i will handle it
 
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