Why and when would you pull the trigger?

learn to read people

living in a country where there is barely any Legal liability at all it all boils down to social and moral choice. The art of reading into someone’s character and intentions becomes honed very quickly. Driving through an unfamiliar town late the other night and pulling up to a store to ask directions, two men drinking cokes get up and put their hands on their pistols(one man drawing)
I realized immediately that they were just waiting for me to display my intentions and as son as I did they sat down. In their mind I was the potential threat and I need to respect that.

If I were less prudent I could have been threatened and done something rash, ending the night on a very different note.

Alertness and awareness, and the art of listening to people can give you the jump start on survival.

I witnessed a man in his home, when three men who had been drinking came on his property, they had been shooting rounds off with browning hi-power 9mm and stumbled in front of his store demanding cigarettes(pistols drawn) he pulled up behing them about 20 feet away with a marlin semi-auto .22 rifle, fired several rounds off in the air and then held them at gun point till they left(their guns all lowered)

When do they deserve to be shot at? Unfortunately for them, once they do something disqualifying them from the natural protection of society. It varies per individual but once they have ejected themselves from that club, they are automatically downrange.
 
Driving through an unfamiliar town late the other night and pulling up to a store to ask directions, two men drinking cokes get up and put their hands on their pistols(one man drawing)
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In their mind I was the potential threat and I need to respect that.
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How the heck is this response justified??? You're going into a place of business! That alone is not a justified reason for the two citizens enjoying cocacola to point guns at you!

Holy sidearms Batman, even on our trigger happy forum, at least one of those guys should've been going to jail. For me, some guy in a store parking lot pulling a gun on me would've started a gun fight. I sure as hell wouldn't be respecting their urge to pull a weapon on me, a lost citizen.

For me, their force toward you, and your following "justification" and respect of said force is mind blowing! :D
 
life in the hills

You have to understand I am giving you a scenario from the Central American point of view. Gunfights take place here everyday, and in the remote area I was in, it was to them “odd” for a car with tinted windows to pull up at that time of night. (you have to understand this town is made up of dirt roads, and the “store” is a tin shack.:cool:

Here there is no law, mostly just what the neighborhood implicates for itself. I guess it does get kind of stressful sometimes but that’s the third world. Fortunately for you guys back in the land of the free you don’t have to deal with this extremism but it can help put things in perspective.
 
Groundhog,

In general, I think we are in agreement in so far as an armed assault is concerned.

If someone is threatening you with a weapon (gun, knife, broken bottle, baseball bat, tire iron, etc.) to obtain your property (money, wallet, iPod, iPhone, etc.) it is implicit in the situation that they are willing to inflict grave bodily injury or death upon you to obtain what they desire. In essence it is tantamount to them proclaiming "I will cripple or kill you, if you don't comply".

That's an invitation to be the test target for JHP ammo.

Less clear is when threatened by an individual who is not armed or not obviously armed. Or perhaps he's "armed" with something not usually perceived to be a serious weapon -- i.e. a leather belt, a piece of garden hose or electrical cord.

Also less clear is when other factors such as time, place and your status are involved. For instance, if you are at a party or gathering at another person's house and the slightly intoxicated host threatens you with a knife for your bashing his favorite candidate for office (or whatever reason). Certainly if he threatens, the proper course is to leave the location. However, if he attacks with the knife and you have a clear shot, do you? Or do you call for help from others?

Unarmed conflicts are another matter. I know that currently I could not go toe-to-toe with some 25 year old punk. Others who lack physical conditioning, have debilitating injuries or ailments are in similar situations. The question here is once physical force is threatened by someone of apparent superior strength and condition, when do you justify the use of lethal force?
 
Sorry Ruthless, I didn't pay attention to your location when responding to your story. Regardless, that is a crappy way for any business man to do business. ;) But if there are no law enforcement of any kind anywhere, then so be it.
 
When is it "o.k."?

In the case described, they've already pointed their weapon at you. It is not possible for the situation to get any more serious.

From a moral or legal perspective, there's nothing else left for them to do to "justify" putting 2-to-the-head, 1-to-the-chest. Merely drawing your weapon, for example, on a law enforcement officer will get you dropped. The question here is not "should I", or "can I". The question is "how do I get out of here alive?"

The main problem here, for me, is they've already gotten the drop on me. I must have been less than vigilant, perhaps lost in thought, to not recognize my surroundings, and the approaching assailant(s). At this point, the only way to survive is to use my HEAD, not my weapon.

As a general rule, keep your eyes on their eyes, speak softly, saying "o.k., o.k., no problem, you are the boss, no problem, you are the boss". hands away from body, palms out, moving slowly for the wallet, slightly crouched down. Make your body smaller, and lower to the ground, with your body bladed to the weapon. From this position, you present a slightly smaller target, and you can leap/roll away behind cover *IF* he starts shooting. In many cases, a street thug that starts shooting is NOT going to impact with lethal force. I've read of one account where a police officer and a thug traded rounds inside an ELEVATOR in a shopping mall. 22 rounds fired. 1 impact. Non-lethal. Subject apprehended successfully, with a minor wound to the foot.

If his weapon is in physical contact with me, i.e., small of the back or to the face, I am going to push my body against the weapon slightly to create positive pressure. From here, I can use one of many effective disarming techniques. If you don't know any, you can get instruction from a good Krav Maga instructor.
 
If my life, or that of my loved ones, or of an innocent person, is being threatened by someone.

I never go near a gun when I am angry; only when I frightened for my life.
 
Pulling a trigger is a last resort and for sure have a good lawyer. Live by that
and perhaps it will go well.;)
 
If someone pulls a gun on me....either he's gonna walk away, or I am gonna to walk away! Of course if the bg catches me by surprise and already has his gun drawn and I don't. I would have no choice but to either comply or die, so in that case I would do whatever it takes to keep from getting shot.
 
As a general rule, I would only pull the trigger when I or someone else was in danger of serious injury or death and I would only do so when I had a clear line of fire and was sure of where my bullets are going to go. However, Murphy being the prick he is I would/will adapt or change this rule depending on my reading of a given situation.
 
:rolleyes: Hmmm .... good subject!

I'll admit to being slow to pull a gun. (Yes, I've had several occasions.) Me? I won't draw unless I fully intend to fire; and, if I'm going to pull the trigger, then, it's got to be for either the preservation of life or future health.

While I very well might use a gun to stop a carjacking, (Because a carjacking is very dangerous as well as very up close and personal.) I wouldn't use a gun to stop an ordinary car theft. If someone gets into one of my vehicles while it's parked out in the driveway and drives off, I won't pepper him with, 'hot lead' as he goes down the road.

On the other hand, if somebody tries to stick a gun in my face to order me out of my vehicle, well ... from that point on, I don't think either one of us is going to have a good day! I know that I would draw and instantly fire, thrice, BEFORE the other guy's gun barrel was leveled on me; and, like I said, I'll admit to being slow to pull a gun. Just don't threaten me with deadly force or dire physical harm; and, we'll get along fine together.

There is another question here; 'How do you know when you're truly in danger?' The answer for me involves a combination of: training, experience, cold nerve, and a Christian willingness to not snuff out someone else's life without giving him benefit-of-doubt by waiting a moment, or two, longer than might be practical.

In short, if I'm not 100% certain about the other guy's intentions AND, also, believe I've got that final moment I need to act, then, I will wait - even to well inside of Tueller's famous 21 foot personal safety zone! I have and will continue to apply these personal standards of armed behavior to all confrontational situations which do NOT include the other guy's use of a firearm.

With guns, it's a whole different set of rules: Whenever you face a gun you've got zero reaction time and need to remember to act accordingly! ;)

As a general rule, keep your eyes on their eyes, ...
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No, my friend, it's NOT their eyes that you have to watch. Sometimes you can't even see the eyes. It's the hands! Monkeys always do evil with their paws. Watch the entire head, the shoulders, and the hands; and, then, you'll know exactly when to begin firing.
 
Interesting discussion.

I have a "bone to pick" with the well-used phrase, "deadly force should be your last option".

I would suggest that sometimes it should be the FIRST option. Tactics are not always linear, and sometimes you may put yourself or others in danger by not shooting.

And sometimes it's better to talk to the police, after a righteous shoot, too.
 
This is kind of a hard question to answer, because it not only depends on the event, the criminal enterprise of the area (are the local thugs known to shoot the victim), your mindset, but also (and most importantly) state and local (case) law.

In Florida the onus is on the shooter because our laws are very broad, and have been interpreted as such by recent case law.

Now my opinion if this occurs in my house, and I illuminate you, and you either charge me, or have any type of weapon, fire at will unless you are leaving, and it's legal too.

On the street it really depends on the threat, but armed robbery and rape would be a shoot scenario if there was a clean shot.
 
I have a "bone to pick" with the well-used phrase, "deadly force should be your last option".

I would suggest that sometimes it should be the FIRST option.
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I think this was meant rather like the old adage that you find something you lost in the last place you look.:D In essence, your first option can be your last option in some situations. You just have a lot of folks here trying to make sure the Rambo effect isn't what is advocated in what they say.
 
I truly believe that it is an inherent trait (especially in men) to stand ones ground. At the first sign of a serious threat, (ie: being approached and seeing a gun as it is being drawn) how many of you would even consider turning tail and running away even if you were armed?

How many would seek nearest cover and draw your own weapon?

I practice a lot, compete a lot, and carry a lot. While I am not going to win any IDPA championships, I can draw from concealment and hit center mass in under 2 seconds, so if at all possible, I would............ beat feet out of there as fast as I could, put distance and cover between myself and the bad guy, have my weapon drawn, keep a close eye on him, and call the cops!

When to pull the trigger? When there is absolutely no other option.

Many "What would you do if...." scenarios have been posted here and on other forums. Most of the replies I see are shoot or comply. What the hell is wrong with removing yourself from the situation rapidly if it is possible? I almost never see this response posted.

I think it is because most of us are naturally wired to take a stand. This is all well and good when weapons are not involved. When they are, getting away from the danger, if possible, beats putting a hole in someone, or worse getting a hole put in you.

DS
 
It ALL depends PER situation...
Personally...... If a person has a gun OR a knife pointed at me, a family member or friend that is authorization for deadly force. Weather or not he is only asking for money or what. That weapon is still pointed at me.
 
One way to look at the issue is to expand the question: "Why would you willingly change an armed robbery (or other incident) into a gunfight?" Most criminal events that involve deadly force start out that way. If you haven't been shot/stabbed/beaten/etc right off the bat there is a very small chance of being shot/stabbed/beaten/etc later on. Criminals tend to threaten in order to gain compliance, and as long as that compliance is there the event rarely escalates. The key, IMO, is being able to determine with some degree of accuracy when that escalation is occurring, and not doing things to up the violence level yourself. Shooting is a last resort, not a first choice. As Doublestack put it, "When to pull the trigger? When there is absolutely no other option." And once you pull the trigger you have eliminated a lot of other options you might have been able to use.
 
Mr. Armstrong,

I'll disagree with your statement
If you haven't been shot/stabbed/beaten/etc right off the bat there is a very small chance of being shot/stabbed/beaten/etc later on.
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Don't ever count on that. That small chance may be your own death sentence. To wit:

The fellow who owned the neighborhood liquor store complied totally with his Samoan armed robbery suspect and was shot as the thug left the store -- twice. Fortunately he survived.

A few years ago while I was in Las Vegas, a convienence store operator complied and was forced into a service closet, then shot six times. He did not survive.

Two years ago, thugs broke into a local restaurant in the early AM, forced the manager to open the safe. Five employees complied in every way. The manager was shot in the back - now has limited use of his left arm - and a 62 year old cook was severely pistol-whipped and lost an eye. Both people were injured after the crooks got what they wanted. The thugs were debating one thug's suggestion that "we cap 'em all" but they were interrupted by a delivery truck pulling up.

Anytime someone uses a threat of violence there are 3 things to remember;
1. He expects you to comply out of fear;
2. It is implicit that he will kill/cripple/maim you at his whim;
3. There are no guarantees he will respect your compliance and not hurt you.

I refuse to let my fate be dictated to the whim of some thug who thinks laws are only for the weak and timid.
 
:rolleyes: I, too, don't agree with the opinion that -

Originally posted by David Armstrong
If you haven't been shot/stabbed/beaten/etc right off the bat there is a very small chance of being shot/stabbed/beaten/etc later on.
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I'm aware of numerous instances where aggressive thieves, 'needed' to experience an overwhelming sense of control over their victims and freely chose to use their guns or knives immediately before leaving the scene of a crime.

After an attack these people are going to return to a generally downtrodden daily existence; their lives are largely dissatisfying. They live with an unusual sense of inferior being that normal people would find difficult to understand. These misfits often appreciate their disadvantages, understand their dilemma, are irrepressibly angry, and want to get even! :mad:

For many of these people, I don't think their violent antisocial behavior is just about robbery; I believe that many sociopaths will actively seek to attack and rob you for the, 'pure rush' of finally being powerful and in control! Remember, in order for, 'control' to be real, it must be exercised; and, 'power' is worthless unless you have a chance to use it!

Like I said, for many of these people, I don't think it's just about sex or money. You CAN count on them to use their weapons! Most of these guys don't rob you because they simply need money; they rob you because they're angry, hold onto an active social hatred for people in general, and need to create some sort of social situation where - no matter how brief - they can feel powerful and in charge.

After they get your money, or your virginity, or whatever, that's when many violent thieves are really going to want (or need) to hurt you! Many times, compliance only forestalls the inevitable - Which is YOU bleeding! :eek:

In my opinion, for reasons most normal people won't anticipate, the last few seconds of many robberies and assaults are often the most dangerous! ;)
 
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