Why a SA revolver?

K

krept

New member
First off, this isn't intended to be a snide post... I'm truly wondering what advantage there is to having a SA revolver over a DA (not DAO) one. The DA revolvers that I have fired have a very very nice breaking trigger in SA, about as good as I can imagine and still be safe to use.

Are SA revolvers sturdier? Are there less moving parts? I'm interested because there seems to be a significant amount of SA revolvers being made and I honestly can't understand why someone would specifically NOT want the choice of being able to fire a shot in double action.

Thanks in advance.
 
I asked the same question to a co-worker just before he bought a Vaquero. He said he just liked the way it looked. After he bought it, he raved about the way it shot and how different (not necessarily better, but very nice) it felt in his hand - he has a much loved 686. I scoffed, and told him he should have bought the Glock he had wanted before seeing the Vaquero.

Then he let me fire it. Verrrryyyyy nice. Not my choice for a first revolver, but I know I will own a SA soon. It does have a much different feel to it than a DA.

Shoot one with an open mind, and draw your own conclusion. But remember, the SA is not intended to fill the same role (at least in my mind) as , say, a GP100 or 686. Also, really big rounds (.454, .45LC, etc.) don't seem to kick as much. Finally, they look really neat!
 
Well, for one thing I think it's the emergence of Cowboy Action Shooting events. For self-defense (unless you practice alot) a double action is the only way to go. Best Regards, J. Parker
 
Hiya krept, I've seen this many threads similiar to yours with both sides (19th century vs 21st!) going at it. The cowboy crowd has been watching too many John Wayne/Clint Eastwood westerns IMO, Walter Mitty types are pervasive on the gun boards whether armed with a Glock or a Colt SAA they're willing to spout the latest ragwriters opinions as gospel. Guns can be very addictive, the Rugers are by far the strongest and maintanance free guns on the market and the single actions are fun, I prefer the Redhawks but admit to falling into the John Taffin Big Bore Handgun addiction having purchased a Casull and a couple Linebaughs with my yearly Alaska PFDs. Personal carry guns are an individual choice that we all enjoy arguing about, visit your local IPSC or IDPA matches to see what works. It'll be a rare day when a single action shows up though. Roy
 
Some other reasons to choose a SA over a DA may include:

the need to cock for each shot reducing the probability of an AD

the added strength of the cylinder being mounted on a solid rod

they are just plain cool
 
krept: What do you want it for? For fun? Then single action. For self-defense? Double action. Best Regards, J. Parker
 
P.S.- Who says A Single Action Is Stronger?

I believe the Ruger Redhawk and the Super Redhawk followed by the Dan Wessons are far stronger than even Rugers single actions. Roy
 
The Ruger line does have a signficant price advantage for the larger calibers as compared to the DAs. If it is a hunting gun then the DA is not much of a feature.

The 22 LRs are a great bargain for plinking.
 
J. Parker... It's just another little area of firearms that I have no experience in, another gap left to fill. I'm actually just barely starting to collect firearms now that I have made my girlfriend a convert. There are just so many guns and not enough money! For this reason, I need to prioritize my purchaces and I soon will looking for my first revolver.

A SA revolver is a handgun that I just couldn't figure out. It would not be for self defense primarily due to the limitations mentioned and at this early stage in my hobby, self defense is where my thinking is leading me at the moment. For revolvers, I have my sights on the GP100 and 629 Classic. I think I'll reserve the .45 Colt to the SA revolver down the road (well, maybe one of those converted Linebaughs too :D).

I was inspired by this thread because of a video I recently watched revolving around (haha) an undercover DEA operation gone sour. An informant was making a buy from a suspect and it turns out the BG was carrying a SA revolver. He decided to off the informant, but could only get two shots off because he was wearing gloves and bumbled with cocking the hammer each time. Backup came just in time, the informant was hit once superficially and the BG was killed on the spot. I was thinking that the informant was VERY lucky that the BG was so clumsy and chose a SA revolver...

In any event, I have seen some VERY fast target shooting by people in (I think) the Single Action Shooting Society? Definately a training issure, but I just could never figure out why be limited to SA? The responses have helped. Sometimes you can't get warm fuzzies from something borne of pure efficiency. Thanks again.
 
I just remembered I recently talked with someone at Guns and Postal Plus (no lie about the name) out here in Phoenix... He had a FA .454 Casull with a short barrel that he said was made in a very limited number (500? 5000?) for US Postal workers out in Alaska for bear defense. Wow, if I was a Postal worker and issued one of those, I might be thinking about a different line of work!
 
A couple of points here...

1) The SAs can deal with big recoil better than the DAs. It relates to the grip being able to shift in the hand.

2) With practice, the SA wheelgun has the fastest "first strike speed" of any action made, including DA wheelgun and SA semi-auto carried cocked'n'locked.

3) For those trying to learn and practice the "old combat art" of the SA wheelgun, the Ruger Blackhawk rear sight that overhangs the back of the topstrap is simply an abortion. FA fixed that by putting their adjustable rear sight further forward along the topstrap. The other options are to get a Vaquero or similar and live with a puny sight, or have something completely custom done, which is probably the route I'll take.

See, for hunting, cocking with the pad of the thumb is fine. But for fast cocking during the draw or during fast follow-up shots, you've got to "knuckle it", throwing the outermost joint of the thumb across the hammer. Numerous old-west sources document this. It's totally contrary to modern practice when cocking a DA hammer with the pad of the thumb. That's why the Super Blackhawk hammer isn't optimal. People with smaller hands can knuckle a Bisley-type hammer, or people like me prefer a Vaquero/Blackhawk hammer type. There's also aftermarket "fanning and fast-draw" hammers that stick way up but I for one find that overkill.

Once you understand this and play with it, the speed you can do a draw'n'cock is simply astounding...and it "feels good", if you're doing it right the sights just "sink right in" because the natural pointing ability of these beasts is excellent.

The people that say a bear defense gun should be a DA wheelgun are making the mistake of confusing a hunting SA revolver with a combat SA wheelgun. The high "first strike" speed of the SA gives it the advantage, especially when you factor in the monster SA calibers available like .454Casull or .475Linebaugh. But the rear sight must NOT interfere with a "fast knuckle draw" and there must be no scope on it that would interfere the same way...and the hammer must be knuckling-compatible, which rules out the Super Blackhawk hammer. Fortunately, the Vaquero/Blackhawk combat-style hammers drop right onto a Super Blackhawk or a Bisley just fine.

Jim
 
Why would you want a Double Action Revolver?

For all practical purposes, I can fire SA as fast as DA.

Reloading is faster with a Double Action, but that is only important if you are going to carry extra ammo, and I dont usually do that.
 
Mr. March-

I rarely donate buck a round ammo but in this case I'll spring for a box or two to watch anyone fast draw and knuckle full power 454 Casulls or .475 Linebaughs. I believe you've painted a picture here that may be dangerous to the many shooters here who've never shot the big bores. According to a formula on Realguns.com my loads are generating up to 65 pounds of recoil (wanna compare facial scars?) that can and will whack ya in the face with the front sight with the slightest lapse of concentration. Happens to most everyone, Sundles of Buffalo Big Bore related some of the same stories today on another forum. sixgunner.com Roy
 
Hmm. No doubt valid, I admit to not having dealt with the beyond-.44Mag-level SAs.

But, let me ask you a question: it's clear you CAN fast-handle .45LC, and we know that'll fit a .454Casull just fine. So if you were to practice with it in .45LC, and then loaded .454 full-house for backwoods carry, if a dang Griz charged you from 15ft out, it would seem to me that a fast-knuck draw and fire straight to the snout might be the ONLY thing that could save your neck.

Errr...in other words, might it not be WORTH the wrist pain to be able to do a really fast draw and fire in a dire situation?

A broken wrist will heal. Getting eaten is forever?

The other answer might be to skip the monster loads altogether and just run really hot .357Mag in a heavyweight hardcast load? The Blackhawk can easily fling 158s at 1,500fps or more. If you're going to take a headshot anyways and you understand that you've got to get in BELOW that hard ridge of bone a bear uses as a forehead, that sort of .357 load might be the deepest-punch load available that can also be safely fast-knuckled?

Jim
 
Nothing like a good Ruger single action for strenght and fun. Cowboy action or other use. :)
 
Knuckling Big Bores-

Hiya Jim, just got back from church (Sunday Shooting!). When ya get into the big bores (say .44 and up) eventually most shooters get into the cast bullets of 300gns and above then discover that the front sight just ain't tall enough anymore to zero the gun. That micro second that the heavier bullets stay in the bore cause the shot to go way higher, with the 454 Casull and the Linebaughs it's impossible to hold the same zero going from different shooting positions as in from the bench to the Keith sitting or to standing off hand so a compromise (hate that word!) zero must be accomplished. Bears have skulls similiar in strength to wolves, it's just a narrow target from a frontal charge. Many hunters have parted the hair on a bears head simply because their gun was zeroed for 100 or 200yds and the shot was at a much closer range. With me so far? I'm no wordsmith obviously but bear with me (grin), IMO and on a few other hunters and guides here in AK if it comes down to the bear being on top of you the DA in a .357 or .44 mag would be a better tool than the SA. I've swapped to the Smith in .44 Mag with 330 LBTs@1300fps because that's as much gun as I can handle in that sort of situation. The FAs are just too tightly fit to reliably operate in the woods, sand dirt and crud will lock them up. I see your point in the fast first shot but with a gun like say that short Freedom Sheriffs model it'll likely end up in the dirt at the first shot, bummer if ya missed eh? A stiffly loaded .357 that can be controled does make more sense than the little FA that'll likely jump out of yer hand. Good to meet you sir, Roy
 
Roy, two things: I'm not necessarily stuck on FA; you ain't the only one reporting problems. God, they LOOK so good, and the rear sight is done so well...but, regardless, I guess it's custom sights on a Ruger of some sort for me.

Shame, really. But at least you can get a Ruger customized to major calibers. I think each time I mention the .454Casull, you've been thinking I mean the gun when in fact I've meant the CALIBER all along in this thread, regardless of platform, action or brand.

So lesse. If a bear charges at you from some distance, say 40ft or more, a headshot seems VERY unlikely, in which case .357Mag is probably a BAD idea, even with slow, carefully placed fire. In this circumstance, could a .454Casull or hotter have a chance at a body-shot stop?

That seems to be one of the two critical questions. Because if the handcannon calibers can't do that, and ALL handguns should be considered a "headshot only" proposition, then...well hell, the .357Mag is just looking better and better, ain't it?

The SECOND question is, how often would you have the opportunity and necessity to make a 40ft-plus defensive shot? If a bear is that far out, what are the odds it's actually gonna start a charge? If most defensive shooting of bears is close range, then again we have a good argument for the .357Mag as headshot-capable yet fast-handling.

Or are these the right questions?

The last issue is DA versus SA. Again, I find myself arguing in favor of the fast first-strike speed of a practiced SA. If it's close range, you need that first shot NOW. And with practice, follow-up shots are almost at DA level or even equal in some cases. I definately realize that this only applies if someone is genuinely committed to mastering the SA, which is why the "general advice" of DA for most people probably makes sense.

I don't think firepower or reload speed are issues. If you can't solve a bear problem in five or six shots, I don't think you're gonna.

Sidenote: It occurs to me that Polar Bears in the arctic which have been known to actively hunt people might be a threat at longer ranges than most woodland encounters with Browns, Kodiacs or Blacks. That in turn opens up the "long range shot" option? That's only theory to me; my first concern is Blacks (and Cougars) in California's back country. (Errr...that's black BEARS :D.)

Jim
 
Bob Mundon vs Mikulik?

Hello again Jim, I'm wondering about the later FA 97 in .45 Colt with say a warm Keith load might suit ya? The 97 has a real transfer bar like the Rugers and can handle the latest .45 "Magnum" loads that are listed everywhere for the Ruger BH/SBH and has the rear site available in either the fixed or the set forward FA style adjustable. My 5 1/2in. weighs in at 37oz and I'd guess that the 4 1/4 in (barrel cut even with ejector) would be close to two pounds? I havn't yet had the courage to trim the barrel gap to something like the Rugers but it's been thought about some. 40ft charges, hmmm not much time really to do carefull joint breaking especially with a .38. I've been studying up in the old Keith books and his fondness for the 250-260gners and wonder about how fast the bullet really needs to go to bust a bear down and still have a controlable cartridge. I'll try to get to the range to try "thumbing" one of the Taurus comped 454s just for grins, in the SA 454 platform we're stuck with the FA since none of the name smiths want to deal with the liability of chambering the 454 Casull in the Rugers. I've read somewhere of a Uberti in the casull but I'm not sure about the quality? P&R makes one but it's on a long frame like the IMI gun which I think is way too big for a holster gun and fast draw? Anyway, 40ft can be the line of death or plenty of room depending on the situation with the bear. I've had them closer when fishing and didn't feel threatened and I've had them at 50yds while I was elbow deep in blood over a moose when the bear let me know loudly that I had his dinner. Fish bear lived and moose bear died, wrestling a gun from holster with blood all over ya ain't easy. My first shot jerked into his right shoulder (aimed at face) at 22 paces (remember he charged from 50?) and he still wanted dinner or me while I poled him again five more times. One of them got his spine and gave me time to find the danged speedloader in my Carhart bib and brain him. Second question was how often will I have the opportunity for a defensive shot in Alaska? Bears eat the fish we eat and during hunting they get acclimated to the gun shot meaning gut pile. Pavlovn Principle? I guess it comes down to the old buck fever thing, some hunters shake before the shot and others after? I've hunted with Pittsburg cops that've seen more than their share of gun fights in the city ghettos crap their shorts at a brownie a hundred yards off? Ya just don't know till ya do it, a few years back a native gal capped a brownie right through it's eye after it chased her onto the roof (snow drifts). She used a battered old Ruger .22 MK1. True story! Gotta run, Roy
 
Ah! Hmm, somewhere I saw a Ruger set up custom in .454Casull, I assumed it was fairly common? I mean, as far as I'm aware it's not as potent as the .475Linebaugh and with thicker case walls possible from the smaller cylinder bores identical to .45LC, I assumed a .454Casull on a Ruger frame should be stronger?

Yep, I was right that there's at least one: Magnum Research makes a five-shot BFR with a *standard* length cylinder in .454Casull. That's a Super Blackhawk frame, it could easily convert to the grip and hammer option of your choice.

See also:
http://www.magnumresearch.com/old/bfr01.html

I recently had a chance to handle a .500Linebaugh five-shot built on a Ruger and was unpleasantly surprised as to how little case wall was left. I would hope the .475 would be better but...the .454Casull would be my first choice if I thought I needed that general class of power.

In any case, I agree completely that the .357Mag is unlikely to break a Griz's body. Probably the .44Mag as well isn't exactly optimal.

Now, I'm puzzled that you now LIKE the FA97, having panned the bigger ones? Or did I misunderstand (quite possible :)). Having handled an FA97 recently, I agree that they sure as hell feel nice and tight (and smooth). The one I saw was in .357Mag, which would be better for most of the shooting I do and an extra shot is always good versus .45LC 5-shot. I'm looking more for 48-state backwoods defense versus Alaska.

The FA97 in .357 seems slightly smaller and handier than the Ruger in that caliber, and doesn't need massive alteration to the rear sight. I remain convinced that the Ruger Blackhawk rear sight is an abomination, it's too far back. So that means starting with a Vaquero or Blackhawk and either way, having a couple hundred bucks worth of Express sights and custom gunsmithing done plus the wait :).

But the Ruger should be tougher, has more aftermarket options and more gunsmiths that know how to tune it. Even with the sight mods, an action job and some other fine tuning, the Ruger should come out in pretty good shape for under $1100, which is what a local dealer wants for a barely used FA97 in .357Mag.

Jim
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top